Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

dandxg

Market Profile Confusion

Recommended Posts

I have studied MP and there are some things that I could never figure out. Maybe some nice people can answer them?

 

1. Why is price attracted to a balance area, a high volume area? I have never hand anyone explain that logically. Is it because it needs a re-test? Because price has traded there? To me it makes sense that if there is a high volume node is at the high price then it won't retest there because there was a lot of selling at that high.

 

2. What about the subjectivity with MP. You have splits, merges, profile, default 30 min, etc? On ET a guy just mentioned you could have seen on Cisco futures 20 day chart that there is resistance at this level and this level. 20 days charts never heard of such thing in MP? Most seem to advocate the 30 min profile? This is what lead me back to Wyckoff and VSA. I just couldn't figure out how to deal with what seemed so much subjectivity. Not that Wyckoff and/or VSA are perfect by any means.

 

3. When you are looking at MP and you see some high volume nodes and no volume profile in between them I have heard people rationalize that its going to move between there because there is nothing to stop it. Then price moves away from one of the two high volume nodes and moves back to it its because high volume nodes act as magnets? Huh?

 

I believe MP to be a solid method, I would and do appreciate some feedback to my questions.

 

Good trading to all. Happy Holidays.

 

Dan

Edited by dandxg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah I can understand your wanting to dig deeper...

 

20 day prfoile represents one month, its fairly common to do a monthly profile.

just keep in mind Markets are not rational/ logical etc..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yeah I can understand your wanting to dig deeper...

 

20 day prfoile represents one month, its fairly common to do a monthly profile.

just keep in mind Markets are not rational/ logical etc..

 

Kudos, I didn't think about the obvious 20 day in a trading month. Logical enough. Look forward to other constructive feedback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try looking at the MP while thinking it is moving from balance to imbalance and back to balance.

Balance = congestion = less risk trading.

Imbalance = trending = higher risk trading

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hello

 

it has nothing to do with risk.

Whether you are in the range or in Trend, the risk exists.

Balance, the market has found a equilibrium point.

The Imbalance, the market has found a new reason to get out of range and find a new equilibrium point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks, I was originally drawn to MP looking for a better S/R. I guess its like any other form of trading different viewpoints to the same picture.

 

I started to look at MP and volume at price to find better s/r, but it actually led me to look at price in terms of brackets, and now i just outline the ranges and these work out to be pretty accurate s/r levels. Drawing ranges sure helps you to see the important levels and ignore the noise, and as a beginner i would recommend it to anyone. By the way, this works in all timeframes.

 

P.s. I have a journal over at http://www.priceaction.net if anyone wants to see more of what i mean by price brackets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was sent this information yesterday. Market Delta released two new papers . I think they will help you gain a better understanding .

 

[url=http://www.marketdelta.com/education]http://www.marketdelta.com/education[/url

 

Two New Education Documents

 

Both of these documents are new and are part of an educational pathway that we will continue to develop and let you know about. These two documents are foundational to getting the most out of MarketDelta and learning to apply the Footprint chart effectively.

 

 

1. Footprint Chart Anatomy

2. Learning to Read the Footprint

 

Make a great day,

The Team at MarketDelta

MarketDelta LLC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To save the confusion it might be better to link directly to the Market Profile information. The stuff you linked is on market delta (generally) and footprint charts (specifically). Interesting topics but nothing to do with market profile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, I am not getting any of these replies? Soultrader? I always check the junk mail too.

 

I just started today with Alexander Trading's $5 trial for 2 weeks. It's only been a day, his partner Harris moderated and did a good job of explaining MP/ AMT theory concepts. A few years back when I made an effort to learn it, it just didn't stick. I get the merges but the splits just seemed so subjective.

 

On a side note I tried Market Delta and its info overload for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The High volume (nodes/balance) are areas of fair price. These are areas where most trade took place. Risk is viewed as symmetric as the prices in the balance area/hv node are fair to both buyer and seller.

 

Now, if you are an institution, with a very large order to fill, where are you going to try and do it? Where there is liquidity of course so you will suffer less execution risk. Where do we know there is liquidity?

 

This is why high volume areas may sometimes act as magnets. Their 'pole' however can change. Sometimes these areas will repel price if value is seen to have changed, or attract if not.

 

The polarity can be determined by volume analysis at the extremes of the high volume area.

 

This is how I understand it, but I'm not an expert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have studied MP and there are some things that I could never figure out. Maybe some nice people can answer them?

 

1. Why is price attracted to a balance area, a high volume area?

2. What about the subjectivity with MP. You have splits, merges, profile, default 30 min, etc?

3. When you are looking at MP and you see some high volume nodes and no volume profile in between them I have heard people rationalize that its going to move between there because there is nothing to stop it. Then price moves away from one of the two high volume nodes and moves back to it its because high volume nodes act as magnets? Huh?

 

Dan:

1. High volume is what occurs at the nodes or POCs. It is where the majority of buyers and sellers are comfortable and perceive fair value within their respective timeframes. You will find that price is attracted to high volume areas to enable the maximum number of buyers and sellers to be satisfied because the POC represents one of several forms of Accumulation/Distribution

2. Yes there is a degree of subjectivity in MP when looking at distributions. Don Jones's concept actually originates from the CBOT Handbook of looking at distributions in terms of 5, 20 and 60 day distributions - (which in turn originated from Ricahrd Dennis and Bill Eckhardt of Turtle fame who used as just one of their entries a 20 day breakout - I should add that it was not as simple as just that though) - and as previously remarked this represents 1 week, 1 month and 2 month trading. The only issue I have with this is that it is static and markets are not static. They are dynamic and therefore frequently you will find that the distribution is shorter or longer than the aforementioned timeframes.

3. Price will tend to migrate between one set of high volume node to another. In its purest form it would represent a double distribution. Several reasons. One could be because in a rising market the shorts from the lower node are happy to regain their original sale for a breakeven cover. Another would be because people tend to remember time spent at a price. It imprints indelibly on the eye and creates a notion of value. The longer time is spent at a price the more it becomes accepted by the majority as value thereby creating a natural effect of on reversals to then revisit the high volume level - horizontal - rather than stopping initially somewhere within the speed area - vertical -

 

Dan to divert slightly from your questions

Value is in the eye of the beholder for different timeframes represent different behaviour patterns which also then leads one into the realm of anyone's need to transact. For example a day trader runs out of time and therefore no longer cares about exact entry or an institution looks at volume purely from the capability of being able to transact

 

The current S&P distribution started with the gap up on Feb 25th 2010 and possibly finished on Friday April 23rd for it reached perfectly into a MP measured move. This would be 40/41 days whereby any daily close below 1190/1191 would confirm the top.

Why?

Because 1191 is the top of Value for the current distribution

One can therefore infer that whilst above 1190/1191 and more especially closing above 1208.5 that the top is not in and a further push to 1231 or on a panic around 1241 instead

 

Dan you have opened an interesting discussion point that I am only really doing minor justice to for in reality a whole chapter could be written about the exact points you raise but I hope that in some small way I have answered a degree of your questions and am happy to continue the dialogue

Edited by alleyb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ally,

 

Please can you elaborate on the MP Measured Move you mention, or refer me to where I can find out more? Is it similar to Dalton's idea of range estimation based upon where the market opens in relation to the previous profile value area, and the acceptance/rejection of the value?

 

Thanks,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Guys just found the thread...

 

The thing is, how to we know if price is leading value or value leading price? context is key, but ....

 

The only job we have to do is...Determine S/R levels and then determine direction for those S/R levels to hold...so the questions is how do we know if price will go back to value or POC, or not? is the same as saying, go with the trend or play the reversal...Isn`t

 

:crap::missy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By definition price always preceeds Value and Value catches up to price

The question you need to answer is whether the market action is at below or above VA and therefore what is the response whether that is horizontal or vertical. Timeframe is important within this and an application to understanding the 4 steps of market activity is useful to establish the answer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This detail may give you a hand..

 

What is Market Profile?

 

Market Profile ® is defined as the study of price and volume over a period of time. Market Profile charts depict volume horizontally, as opposed to vertically, which is how most charts and platforms show volume. Market Profile illustrates price development, how price is moving, and the amount of volume trading at a particular price in real-time. It can also show a composite representation of price movement and development over a specific amount of time.

Why use Market Profile?

 

It is imperative for a trader to know and understand Market Profile. Recognizing how price is moving and developing in conjunction with volume will assist traders with placing high probability trades. A composite presentation of the Market Profile presents a detailed history of price movement and development. This gives traders additional information when attempting to identify long-term, intermediate-term, and short-term trends to trade with. Additionally, Market Profile's horizontal representation of volume is crucial in identifying major areas of support and resistance, which trades are taken against.

 

Best trade!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Date: 18th April 2024. Market News – Stock markets benefit from Dollar correction. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Technical buying, bargain hunting, and risk aversion helped Treasuries rally and unwind recent losses. Yields dropped from the recent 2024 highs. Asian stock markets strengthened, as the US Dollar corrected in the wake of comments from Japan’s currency chief Masato Kanda, who said G7 countries continue to stress that excessive swings and disorderly moves in the foreign exchange market were harmful for economies. US Stockpiles expanded to 10-month high. The data overshadowed the impact of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East as traders await Israel’s response to Iran’s unprecedented recent attack. President Joe Biden called for higher tariffs on imports of Chinese steel and aluminum.   Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex stumbled, falling to 105.66 at the end of the day from the intraday high of 106.48. It lost ground against most of its G10 peers. There wasn’t much on the calendar to provide new direction. USDJPY lows retesting the 154 bottom! NOT an intervention yet. BoJ/MoF USDJPY intervention happens when there is more than 100+ pip move in seconds, not 50 pips. USOIL slumped by 3% near $82, as US crude inventories rose by 2.7 million barrels last week, hitting the highest level since last June, while gauges of fuel demand declined. Gold strengthened as the dollar weakened and bullion is trading at $2378.44 per ounce. Market Trends:   Wall Street closed in the red after opening with small corrective gains. The NASDAQ underperformed, slumping -1.15%, with the S&P500 -0.58% lower, while the Dow lost -0.12. The Nikkei closed 0.2% higher, the Hang Seng gained more than 1. European and US futures are finding buyers. A gauge of global chip stocks and AI bellwether Nvidia Corp. have both fallen into a technical correction. The TMSC reported its first profit rise in a year, after strong AI demand revived growth at the world’s biggest contract chipmaker. The main chipmaker to Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. recorded a 9% rise in net income, beating estimates. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • The morning of my last post I happened to glance over to the side and saw “...angst over the FOMC’s rate trajectory triggered a flight to safety, hence boosting the haven demand. “   http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/topic/21621-hfmarkets-hfmcom-market-analysis-services/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-228522   I reacted, but didn’t take time to  respond then... will now --- HFBlogNews, I don’t know if you are simply aggregating the chosen narratives for the day or if it’s your own reporting... either way - “flight to safety”????  haven ?????  Re: “safety  - ”Those ‘solid rocks’ are getting so fragile a hit from a dandelion blowball might shatter them... like now nobody wants to buy longer term new issues at these rates...yet the financial media still follows the scripts... The imagery they pound day in and day out makes it look like the Fed knows what they’re doing to help ‘us’... They do know what they’re doing - but it certainly is not to help ‘us’... and it is not to ‘control’ inflation... And at some point in the not too distant future, the interest due will eat a huge portion of the ‘revenue’ Re: “haven” The defaults are coming ...  The US will not be the first to default... but it will certainly not be the very last to default !! ...Enough casual anti-white racism for the day  ... just sayin’
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.