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zdo

What Psychologists ?

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What happens to our forum trading psychologists / psychiatrists ?

Seems some stay a little longer than others but none of them stay for very long.

Some thoughts / questions on why:

They fear being peer… you’re basic’ power in the helping professions’ trips don’t work very well with traders. ??”

They are really on forum to recruit clients – and when that doesn’t work they peel off ??

Their general and individual models are inadequate and incomplete for ‘helping’ traders and forum ‘work’ accelerates that realization ??

They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??

Thoughts ?

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All of the above plus

 

they go nuts themselves

they were nuts before hand and any sort of forum feedback further hurts the self esteem.

 

or possibly an open forum is not the best place for any sort of proper therapy and they come to the realisation that if they really are trying to help then its probably unethical/improper to be posting..... particularly if they are professional and searching for clients or have some valid ideas to pass on. Selling professional services such as these I feel are very different to offering a trading system or whiz bang idea.

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A bit harsh JohnJohn1hew????

I thought the point of a forum was to seek out the help of others for those skills you may not have?

 

you are right about people lying to themselves - Not everyone is able to help themselves - hence the need for psychologists.

Imagine if everybody tried to do home surgery or medical self diagnosis? I guess it would fix the health budgets of governments.

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Whats wrong with going nuts anyway ?!!

 

not directed towards anyone in particular...

 

all sane people have mad states....some are lucky enough to find them although the (the states) never present themselves with a lot of choice or in the best light and nearly always have poor timing for that matter....

 

the best Analysts have had their own states Analysed ...how else can you walk in their patients shoes...

 

Best

John

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RE:

If you really want to know, why not ask some of them?

Well for one - they are gone. Plus - Going on my impressions of the body of work contributed from ‘them’ so far, I'm thinking I would get much more authentic answers from traders (with own life examined,etc) than ‘them’. I should note, these questions are more about the patterns of how 'they' appear on the scene and then disappear, and the dynamics when here - than are they a criticism of the ‘helpers’. As DugDug and JWBTrader are pointing out, they definitely have their own issues - even though most of them cloak those issues to a fault.

 

Is this accurate ? Trading 'therapists' are NOT regular 'therapists'.

 

Is this accurate ? Many of the issues faced by traders that are pparently 'psychological' , really have no psychological solutions at all.

 

 

 

 

re: "Why not figure things out on your own ... " Soultrader, there you go. Shut it down. Site no longer needed…

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RE:

I'm thinking I would get much more authentic answers from traders (with own life examined,etc) than ‘them’.

 

Ultimately - we are responsible for our own work, however I would say that definitely some people - be they traders or therapists - are better at others in getting to the crux of a problem AND then being able to explain why and how to fix it.

(I myself find that I need to improve my descriptions of things when writing)

 

So given that a therapist may be good if they are good at solving a problem, whereas a trader may actually be terrible at this element of it even though they have the experience and mean well.

The best experience is your own.....and hard work.

 

secondly...."Many of the issues faced by traders that are pparently 'psychological' , really have no psychological solutions at all"

 

I think the original bet for the turtle trading experiment shows this to be false. They were given the same rules, opportunities etc. What caused some to follow the rules and succeed and the others to not follow the rules.

As I could tell it was only down to the psyc reasons?

If so then there are plenty of tricks/tips that are possible to do to improve the mental thoughts and habits to follow the rules. (testing, keeping journals, making plans, research, regular holidays, scaling down trades when on a loosing streak)

 

Most of the success of people in all walks of life, but also in all forms or trading can be defined by their habits and thought processes.

 

It always reminds me of a set of questions a few of us used to ask..... does an idiot/fool know they are an idiot?

How do you incentivise someone who is inherently lazy and just will not do the work required - even if they have certain natural talents?

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DugDug,

Thanks. With this line of thinking, can you direct and relate it to the why 'they' leave / original topic?

 

Also -

re: "habits and thought processes."

habits ? - definitely

thought processes ? - not so sure about that paradigm anymore. That's getting to where the 'psychology' may be falling down.

Thought may not be as central as we would like to think :)

Edited by zdo

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What happens to our forum trading psychologists / psychiatrists ?

Seems some stay a little longer than others but none of them stay for very long.

 

I think a little "back story" here would have gone a long way. Seems like it could have been an interesting thread, but I can't even be sure what it's about.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

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What happens to our forum trading psychologists / psychiatrists ?

Seems some stay a little longer than others but none of them stay for very long.

Some thoughts / questions on why:

They fear being peer… you’re basic’ power in the helping professions’ trips don’t work very well with traders. ??”

They are really on forum to recruit clients – and when that doesn’t work they peel off ??

Their general and individual models are inadequate and incomplete for ‘helping’ traders and forum ‘work’ accelerates that realization ??

They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??

Thoughts ?

 

Dear Zdo: I'm still here. Did you have something you wanted help with?

 

It seems like you have a rather negative opinion of psychologists. Let's talk about your questions:

 

First, "....you're basic power in the helping professions' trips don't work very well with traders.??" Any psychologist worth his/her salt, loves to have involved, motivated clients. Those are the ones who make progress. In general, traders are motivated and have clear measurable goals (equity curve increase). That's refreshing!

 

Second, "They are really on forum to recruit clients..." I can't speak for other psychologists, but I'm here to be a resource for others, share my opinion, learn from others and have a little fun.

 

Third, "Their general and individual models are inadequate and incomplete for ‘helping’ traders..." Now this is an interesting contention. I do think that it is more difficult to help traders if you aren't a trader yourself - after all, trading is a unique experience - however, I think that how people learn to manage ambiguity and risk in trading is very similar to how they learn to do it in life.

 

Fourth, "They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??" This one made me laugh. Of course there are therapist out there that haven't done their own work (very unfortunate for their clients), but I'm not sure that participating in this forum would make a difference to those therapists.

 

Fifth, "Thoughts ?" Yes, I do have some thoughts. Most people who post on the psychology of trading threads seem to think that the answer to all psychological issues is to 'get some discipline'. Most can't articulate how to do that, nor are they aware of how they did it. They make no allowance for individual psychological makeup and how that might effect someone's efforts to become a successful trader. The basic advice that traders give each other is some version of "just suck it up and do it". I wish that worked. Trading would be much simpler and we wouldn't need to discuss trading psychology.

 

Yours,

Dr. FxGirl

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I think a little "back story" here would have gone a long way. Seems like it could have been an interesting thread, but I can't even be sure what it's about.

 

Backstory is pretty simple – they come and they go in the threads. Noticed it and I’m curious what happens. Introduced a few snide possibilities in the o.p., but was seriously asking if any others had insights into what happens to ‘them’ ( ‘them’ being the serial professionals (MD, PHd, licensed etcs. ) that come and go on TL ).

Across the years, I continue to evolve my own (currently somewhat ambivalent but mostly neutral) opinions about trading therapists and coaches – but that is not really germane to this specific topic / question.

If you have insights, please share. If not, no problem. Most of the question threads I start go with some reactivity and few or no answers. nbd…

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Hi, Zdo: I think that people's interests change and/or their time is needed elsewhere. I know for myself that I can't always keep abreast of what is being posted - I lead a busy life, just like everyone else. If the market is slow, I'm more likely to look at what has been posted.

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Thanks DugDug, my comment was not directed at any one in particular, i was just expressing my feeling after having read what the original post stated.To me, people should only seek help and not answers from others. Maybe i believe too much in the theory of recollection.

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Backstory is pretty simple – they come and they go in the threads. Noticed it and I’m curious what happens. Introduced a few snide possibilities in the o.p., but was seriously asking if any others had insights into what happens to ‘them’ ( ‘them’ being the serial professionals (MD, PHd, licensed etcs. ) that come and go on TL ).

Across the years, I continue to evolve my own (currently somewhat ambivalent but mostly neutral) opinions about trading therapists and coaches – but that is not really germane to this specific topic / question.

If you have insights, please share. If not, no problem. Most of the question threads I start go with some reactivity and few or no answers. nbd…

 

Why would anyone put more emphasis on what a scholarly trader has to say than on a trader without any education? This is kind of sad and elitist.

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Thanks DugDug, my comment was not directed at any one in particular, i was just expressing my feeling after having read what the original post stated.To me, people should only seek help and not answers from others. Maybe i believe too much in the theory of recollection.

 

Thanks for the reference. Now that I know what you are talking about, I'd like to ask if you think that applies to trading?

Edited by FXGirl

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I suspect they leave because they decide that their continued presence is not attracting much business. And that they can't stay long without giving away a lot free.

 

They might also get bored with where its going or not going.

 

They are in business after all.

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True JohnJohn1hew

 

I also think the unconscious is very unconscious and therefore we all have shadows that contain the hidden work some of us need or have to do. Pain is a great motivator for seeking the "grail". In the pain is nearly always the "answer" but most just want to be rid of it ie to find the 'secret' of trading... I believe too many place too much emphasis on psychology in trading especially when no edge has been really found in the first place.

 

I know there is a very wide scale of therapeutic application of psychology and therefore a very wide scale of quality of practitioners who could be graded from very poor to outstanding/enlightening in affecting the patient.... nothing is guaranteed in life though. Reputation has a lot to do with how much a therapist has their weekly schedule filled.

 

Trading is just one hook into finding the psyche (there are infnitely many others)...many get scared to look into the chaos and understandably so Hence they would rather repeat the same patterns over and over again...through chaos comes order and visa versa ...this is the human psyche cycle..Trading is an activity that can bring all of this out as it can affect everyone with differing degrees of body and mental experience..

 

What I wrote above has everything to do with trading and also nothing at all to do with trading.

 

An interesting topic, well done zdo for starting it

 

All the Best

John

 

 

In life, what there is to know is easily learnt if we use reasoning.

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JBWTRADER - "I believe too many place too much emphasis on psychology in trading especially when no edge has been really found in the first place."

 

very good point. you have to put the cart before the horse as they say, and practising good habits for trading will not do you much good if over the long run you have no positive PL expectancy. ie; no edge.

 

Didn't one of the market Wizards sum it up - "we all get what we want out of the markets"

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True JohnJohn1hew

 

I know there is a very wide scale of therapeutic application of psychology and therefore a very wide scale of quality of practitioners who could be graded from very poor to outstanding/enlightening in affecting the patient.... nothing is guaranteed in life though. Reputation has a lot to do with how much a therapist has their weekly schedule filled.

 

Yes, John, you are right there is a wide variety of skill levels among psychologists. But reputation comes from results. It's a difficult craft to learn, similar to in some ways trading. To become really good in either field requires that you come to terms with your own inner glitches. But therapy also requires that you develop a deep understanding of human desires and behavior... as well as compassion and respect. Like trading, there is no substitute for experience.

 

I'm retired now, and glad to be spending my time trading Forex. But my husband is still doing therapy. He sees 40+ patients a week (most therapists see 25) and is booked out for six weeks (which is amazing in this economy). It's like that because he gets results.

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These have been busy days and nights so I have simply not been able to participate in (or hardly even look at )a thread I started as much as I normally would.

 

re:

Dear Zdo: I'm still here.

I’m glad you’re still here, girl. If and when you leave, will you please tell us why?

 

re:

Did you have something you wanted help with?

I wonder what percentage of browsers projected the op as an indirect cry for help. Of the responses before yours, 3 did and looks like you did too. Only 2 took the question at face value.

 

re:

It seems like you have a rather negative opinion of psychologists.”

This is off topic because my opinion of ‘psychologists’ isn’t really relevant to the question.

I am admiring your candor in another thread “Look for a psychologist ... – there are a few good ones out there.”. But my opinions, (garnered from both living in one of the most ‘therapist rich’ metropolitan areas on the planet and in areas where they are more typically represented) are not so much about the quality of therapists statistically but about the vary small odds of getting matched up with someone who can go the distance. And, in my opinion, those small odds plummet to virtually no odds of a trader getting matched up appropriately.

 

re

Let's talk about your questions: …
"Fourth, "They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??
This one made me laugh

All four of those 'guesses' were intended to get at least a grin...

 

re

Fifth, "Thoughts ?" Yes, I do have some thoughts. Most people who post on the psychology of trading threads seem to think that the answer to all psychological issues is to 'get some discipline'. Most can't articulate how to do that, nor are they aware of how they did it. They make no allowance for individual psychological makeup and how that might effect someone's efforts to become a successful trader. The basic advice that traders give each other is some version of "just suck it up and do it". I wish that worked. Trading would be much simpler and we wouldn't need to discuss trading psychology.

Thanks. Check some of my posts - you’ll find that I’m a serial ‘it ain’t discipline’ poster.

Maybe we can get into this some in another thread…

 

I started the thread to add to my serious and silly list of reasons ‘they’ (the ‘helpers’ – announced trading doctors, psychologists, coaches, and lay advisors) just vanish from forums without goodbyes.

I know the forum medium itself is an obstacle…. And while the clients may be “motivated” , that doesn’t mean traders are good therapand (horrid emergent terminology…).

Those two reasons, for me, answer why a large percentage of ‘them’ leave. But I still have curiosity about more reasons related to ‘their’ own dynamics and experiences, etc. that trigger them to just fade away the way they do. Thanks for any and all answers to that.

 

All the best,

 

zdo

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    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • The morning of my last post I happened to glance over to the side and saw “...angst over the FOMC’s rate trajectory triggered a flight to safety, hence boosting the haven demand. “   http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/topic/21621-hfmarkets-hfmcom-market-analysis-services/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-228522   I reacted, but didn’t take time to  respond then... will now --- HFBlogNews, I don’t know if you are simply aggregating the chosen narratives for the day or if it’s your own reporting... either way - “flight to safety”????  haven ?????  Re: “safety  - ”Those ‘solid rocks’ are getting so fragile a hit from a dandelion blowball might shatter them... like now nobody wants to buy longer term new issues at these rates...yet the financial media still follows the scripts... The imagery they pound day in and day out makes it look like the Fed knows what they’re doing to help ‘us’... They do know what they’re doing - but it certainly is not to help ‘us’... and it is not to ‘control’ inflation... And at some point in the not too distant future, the interest due will eat a huge portion of the ‘revenue’ Re: “haven” The defaults are coming ...  The US will not be the first to default... but it will certainly not be the very last to default !! ...Enough casual anti-white racism for the day  ... just sayin’
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