The Price / Volume Relationship

[oddiduro111 10]

About ten years ago, I traded stocks using nothing but Price Action as my guide. At that time, I focused on the SPY, DIA and QQQ as my trading vehicles of choice (Hence the username - Spydertrader). After stumbling across some posts on USENET by Jack Hershey, I felt something about his writings resonated with me - in that, I had seen something (in the markets ) which appeared to correspond to the information delineated within his posts. Although quite a number of individuals within the USENET Groups of MISC.INVEST.STOCKS and MISC.INVEST.FUTURES argued (vehemently) that his verbose contributions made no sense, I felt otherwise. At that point, I began my own journey (the vast majority of which I cronicled on the Elitetrader.com web site). However, Jack has always insisted I use the market as my guide.

 

 

 

I focus on remaining on the fractal best described as a 'tape' - almost exclusively. I do, on occassion, intentionally "jump fractals" because doing so remains my first recourse (based on how I originally learned these methods). When I first learned to follow the Price / Volume Relationship, I used all tools available (Coarse, Medium and Fine). As a result, a "signal for change" represented a reason to reverse (irrespective of fractal chosen for trading). It isn't an 'easier' path by any means. It was simply the only path availble at the time (to me, based on my own mental filters).

 

Over the years, I've attempted to make life somewhat easier (some may argue that I haven't succeeded in that regard) by encouraging people to focus on one tool (Coarse) before moving onto another.

 

While I agree, actually trading these methods involves far more than simply drawing lines on a chart, profitable trading represents the consequence of a fully differentiated mind. In other words, unless one knows why someone has placed a specific line on a specific chart, at a specific point in time, then one might as well flip a coin. However, a complete and thoroughly annotated chart does indeed provide all the answers anyone ever needs.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

I can see you remain as incisive and succinct as you always were. Nice post.

[cnms2 10]

Increased volume at 1205/1210 over volume at 1120/1125 as price break down a bigger fractal RTL at 1205/1210. Also see attached snippet.

 

 

 

Sym lateral in r2r segment expected to breakout in direction of dominant move, which it did. Note that the volume increases across this lateral from bar 1 to lateral exit.

 

Are there any other insights that you see?

I've marked on your snippet a few other things that were part of my MADA.

[colossians 10]

Hi guys, fellow PVT/SCT trader, class of 2003. I see that all of you are working hard on learning to read the markets, stay with it. I only read to about page 50, I hope that all of you have gone on to realize the significance of knowing about laterals. Stay with it!

 

Best Regards,

Oddi

 

TQVM for the encouragement. Laterals are extended single bars as far as I can understand. Is there any other way to look at it and also how to annotate it ?

[emac 10]

Hi guys, fellow PVT/SCT trader, class of 2003. I see that all of you are working hard on learning to read the markets, stay with it. I only read to about page 50, I hope that all of you have gone on to realize the significance of knowing about laterals. Stay with it!

 

Best Regards,

Oddi

 

Hi Oddi,

 

I didn't know this started as far back as '03. 2006 was as far as I could trace on the threads for JH methods. I have a long way of learning catch-up to do. Oh well, on with the learning and thanks to everyone who are contributing value to this thread and especially those who are already well advanced in this methodology, sharing selflessly their knowledge and guiding those who are new.

[Zan-shin 10]

does this answer the question?

[emac 10]

I've marked on your snippet a few other things that were part of my MADA.

 

cnms2,

 

Thanks for the snippets, makes it easier to see the faster fractal moves and not jump them.

[cnms2 10]

Friday was a good exercise in detecting "signals to hold", especially after 1300 ...

[rs5 10]

Monday 7 June 2010...

[drwarbuck 10]

I am still in the process of studying this thread on my second read, so please excuse my basic questions.

 

If one sees completion of a volume sequence on the fractal they are trading, for example a down tape r2r2b2r, does this always indicate that the next sequence will be a change of trend, or can the down sequence be followed by another down sequence?

 

Thanks in advance

[innersky 10]

Tuesday June 8th chart

[rs5 10]

Tuesday 8 June 2010...

[ptunic 10]

Tuesday, June 8, 2010.

[ptunic 10]

If one sees completion of a volume sequence on the fractal they are trading, for example a down tape r2r2b2r, does this always indicate that the next sequence will be a change of trend, or can the down sequence be followed by another down sequence?

 

Once you see the sequence is complete, this does not immediate guarantee a new sequence in the opposite direction will begin. It is just that this is the earliest that you can start looking for a Signal of Change to start a new set of sequences in the opposite direction.

 

But even if the sequence is continued by further action (in the same direction), it isn't (as I understand this) like the sequence entirely resets. You could just keep getting (in a down sequence) 2b2r on and on. Non-dominant black, followed by dominant-red. If you don't see a Signal of Change, this is probably what to expect.

 

Also, sometimes in our charts we'll refer to the NSW (non-stationary window) moving, this is related to all this. That means we saw a VE (volatility expansion) occur, typically on higher dominant volume with the close of bar outside the previous LTL. In this case, we are expecting non-dominant movement, followed by further dominant movement soon ( r2r2b2r, get big VE so move NSW, and now we expect 2b2r and only then look for Signal of Change).

[emac 10]

Once you see the sequence is complete, this does not immediate guarantee a new sequence in the opposite direction will begin. It is just that this is the earliest that you can start looking for a Signal of Change to start a new set of sequences in the opposite direction.

 

But even if the sequence is continued by further action (in the same direction), it isn't (as I understand this) like the sequence entirely resets. You could just keep getting (in a down sequence) 2b2r on and on. Non-dominant black, followed by dominant-red. If you don't see a Signal of Change, this is probably what to expect.

 

Also, sometimes in our charts we'll refer to the NSW (non-stationary window) moving, this is related to all this. That means we saw a VE (volatility expansion) occur, typically on higher dominant volume with the close of bar outside the previous LTL. In this case, we are expecting non-dominant movement, followed by further dominant movement soon ( r2r2b2r, get big VE so move NSW, and now we expect 2b2r and only then look for Signal of Change).

 

can you further explain the NSW and Signal of Change and how to correctly identify that signal of change ?

[drwarbuck 10]

Once you see the sequence is complete, this does not immediate guarantee a new sequence in the opposite direction will begin. It is just that this is the earliest that you can start looking for a Signal of Change to start a new set of sequences in the opposite direction.

 

But even if the sequence is continued by further action (in the same direction), it isn't (as I understand this) like the sequence entirely resets. You could just keep getting (in a down sequence) 2b2r on and on. Non-dominant black, followed by dominant-red. If you don't see a Signal of Change, this is probably what to expect.

 

Also, sometimes in our charts we'll refer to the NSW (non-stationary window) moving, this is related to all this. That means we saw a VE (volatility expansion) occur, typically on higher dominant volume with the close of bar outside the previous LTL. In this case, we are expecting non-dominant movement, followed by further dominant movement soon ( r2r2b2r, get big VE so move NSW, and now we expect 2b2r and only then look for Signal of Change).

Thank you for the reply.

 

Would someone please precisely define for me FTT. I believe I was told this is failure to traverse. If that is the case, I am wondering if the bar has any characteristic in and of itself, that would allow one to identify it. It seems it is only an FTT in retrospect after price is seen to not travel any further in its current directional move.

[rs5 10]

Wednesday 9 June 2010

[drwarbuck 10]

I see how you used the closing volume from yesterday, as the start of todays r2r2b2r sequence. But my question is, how did you know that that was the beginning of the sequence and not the end. I could ask the same question as of todays close, is the large volume black spike the first part of the volume sequence b2b of tomorrow morning. If one only looked at today's volume sequences, one would have thought that this was a b2b2r sequence, and waiting for the 2b to develop into the close, which obviously did not happen.

 

Pardon my ignorance

 

Thanks

[cnms2 10]

Numbers in the table below refer to the September 2010 futures, reflecting their rollover to being the front month contract as of June 10, 2010

[rs5 10]

I see how you used the closing volume from yesterday, as the start of todays r2r2b2r sequence. But my question is, how did you know that that was the beginning of the sequence and not the end.

 

If you are addressing my chart of June 9th...

 

It was continuation of the annotations from the previous day. You can see this clearly with nkhoi's NoGap indicator on my June 9th chart, indicating the start of the down container (brown) with the declining red volume bars. Note that the down brown container is nested within the light blue up container and in turn nested within the up green container. Each fractal is busying itself with its own sequence. It would help if you will post your chart to make sure we are talking about the same sequence you are addressing. (attach under advanced tab - additional options - manage attachments - upload)

 

I could ask the same question as of todays close, is the large volume black spike the first part of the volume sequence b2b of tomorrow morning. If one only looked at today's volume sequences, one would have thought that this was a b2b2r sequence, and waiting for the 2b to develop into the close, which obviously did not happen.

 

In the attached snippet, note that we have a dominant black volume zone, followed by a dominant red volume zone that is lower in height. Dominant black volume move, followed by a non-dominant red volume move. Hmmm. Note also that the low point of the down container is still above the adjust point 1 level. Thus what must follow next? Ofcourse if my annotations are correct, a dominant move to complete the sequence must follow at that fractal. Let's see what tomorrow brings

 

Happy MADA!

[drwarbuck 10]

I am trying hard to understand the fractal nature of price and volume as described within this thread, and very much appreciate your time and help. I am using tradestation as my trading platform, and have yet to figure out how to post screen shots on this site. You can tell I am not all that tech savy!!

 

It appears that each day at the close of trading, the 15:00 volume bar is a very high volume bar, and it had been my inclination to almost disregard it, thinking that it was a function of the days rth close. While this may be true, it appears that the nature of that bar is critical in understanding the message of the market? Am I correct that that volume bar, in conjunction with the volume bars at the start of the next real time session will be critical in deciphering the days volume sequence?

 

If I am understanding this correctly, 6/8 ended at the top of the green container left trend line with red volume peaking. When price reversed direction, then one would need to see a full volume sequence corresponding to that container, which played out on 6/9 as r2r2b2r by days close. My error occurred because I was focused on the nested blue container, which seemed to be doing a b2b2r2b, but the 2b never happened because the larger container had yet to complete?

 

So that takes us back to the right edge of the chart, and what stands out here is that the large green container volume sequence has been completed, and price actually did violate the right trend line of that container by a bit, as indicated by your notation and VE. I see a large black volume bar sticking out. It is greater then the large volume bar that ended on 6/8. So one would conclude that it is probable that some type of uptrend sequence on some fractal is about to begin.

 

So getting back to the blue container for a minute, it could be concluded that it did its b2b on 6/8, the 2r was being formed while the green container was doing its r2r on 6/9 and that the blue conatiner completed its sequence with increasing black on 6/9

[dkm 10]

If you are addressing my chart of June 9th...

Let's see what tomorrow brings

Happy MADA!

 

If 09:45 is the start of your skinny b2b then 14:55 cannot possibly be the end of the skinny 2r. That would put p3 below p1 of your sequence. FWIW.

[ehorn 10]

My view of the day... Didn't roll it over.. PFC Has PT2 looking for PT3.

[ehorn 10]

PFC Has PT2 looking for PT3.

 

When WMCN does NOT (according to each persons MADA) then CP4 and get on the right side!

 

Have a nice weekend.

[rs5 10]

Friday 11 June 2010...

[ptunic 10]

Tuesday, June 8 - Friday, June 11 2010.