[stewartcoad]

Hi every one,
And thanks for starting this thread Mitsubishi ..... I'm a bit of a newbie so I'll ask the newbie dumb question (or is it so dumb?) ....

How could a trading system be designed so that the more people who used it the better it became ... i. e. a system that was a self fulfilling prophecy.

Such a system could be freely given away as the more people using it the better system became, and the designers of such a system would be rewarded by their trades being and better and giving them better profits ... do you get my drift?

I know everyone's knee jerk reaction is that the markets are a zero sum game ... but that is in the square thinking ... how can we think outside the square

OK .... I've stuck my neck out and laid down the gauntlet ... who has the guts to pick it up?

[bobcollett]

RULE no 1
For every buyer there must be a seller
Lets invent a universal buying system and hand it out to everybody who asks.
The more traders that use the system , the stronger the price.
Until everybody has bought.
There are no more sellers. No liquidity.The traders who got in first will take their profit.And the price will collapse.
But thats exactly what happens in the market every day.
So I guess we all already have the system,we just need to be early applying it!!

[mitsubishi]

Originally Posted by stewartcoad »

Hi every one,
And thanks for starting this thread Mitsubishi ..... I'm a bit of a newbie so I'll ask the newbie dumb question (or is it so dumb?) ....

How could a trading system be designed so that the more people who used it the better it became ... i. e. a system that was a self fulfilling prophecy.

Such a system could be freely given away as the more people using it the better system became, and the designers of such a system would be rewarded by their trades being and better and giving them better profits ... do you get my drift?

I know everyone's knee jerk reaction is that the markets are a zero sum game ... but that is in the square thinking ... how can we think outside the square

OK .... I've stuck my neck out and laid down the gauntlet ... who has the guts to pick it up?

Sorry to be replying so late to your post but i only just noticed it! I am not sure of the answer but i will put it this way.I first started this thread because i was hoping that other traders would chip in some ideas and help me solve a mystery- how can future prices be predicted?There was very little feedback despite the number of thread views.Naive of me perhaps,but i have to admit it was not suprising given the nature of the challenge,since most people believe very strongly that the market cannot be predicted.To a certain extent they are correct.But apart from anything else,what is very observable is the repeating nature of the market between support/resistance.We know that if resistance holds the market will seek support.So we can predict price to a certain extent.

Today is a very good example of that.1041 could not get broken last week and now the market is near support at 990.(having sailed straight through 1st support at 1018).Simply put,990 holds,1018 becomes resistance,990 fails,we test 961.I would say the market does a pretty good job at helping a trader out if a trader is willing to listen to what it says.In reality it is very very difficult to succeed at this for so many reasons...

What this thread demonstrated is that the daily highs/lows are connected by geometry and mathmatics.If this is true,then there must be a set of rules/formula that exists that will predict a future price at an exact time.And i do mean exact- 2+2 can never be 5.
Gann did it.
I will not be continuing this thread for a very simple reason,i would be giving away something that has taken me 3 years to find.I was prepared to spend many years and knew that i had almost no chance of success.I would say that a lucky mistake made the difference between 3 years and maybe never.But they do say you make your own luck sometimes! After that,the pieces fell into place suprisingly quickly.I kept finding myself saying 'of course' !! its...logical..if x is this,then y Must Be that,kinda thing.
If i showed you what i now know it would amaze you how simple and perfect it is...awesome.And yet you look at it and you think how can it possibly be..how can it work like this? Today is a perfect example (have a look at the call i made in the rule of ten thread) How many traders would believe that we would reverse the 1028 high down to 996 today? I was amazed myself even though i knew that if the rally had ended last week then we must hit this price/time zone .But looking at the first hours trading i was thinking how can it get there in the time left? I thought maybe an alternative scenario might play out (equally mathmatically/geometrically perfect) And thererin lies a problem.
You still need to be able to read a markets direction to make the best use of this.However, i must emphasise,that once the market is on it's way it MUST hit the predicted price at the predicted time to perfectly square price and time.Maximum advantage is to be gained if you can anticipate the trend early.(which is always true) Again,look at todays action and how fast it went to meet its predicted target.I also predicted todays possible high btw.

Anyway,since i made this discovery,my wife said 'so,if someone offered us a million pounds for this today,would you sell it?' Nooo way! not for any money!! I like the way she says 'us'! So don't worry there wont be any books or seminars from me.I got all i need right here.

It's been said that you could print tomorrows closing price in the WSJ a day in advance and still,traders would lose money.Any experienced trader knows how very true that is,and why.
So to answer your question (finally) Yes i think it's good that traders should share and help each other out,but only so far... But i will give some help here to anyone who asks..and one piece of advice.
If you could put a squiggly line on the bottom of your screen that always told you when to buy/sell,wouldn't we all be rich by now? But some traders use indicators and make money.I am glad to see that you intend to start you investigations by 'thinking outside the square'.An excellent place to start.Do not trust what anyone says (including me)There is no wrong way or right way to trade,there is only your way.And only you can find it.Good luck
Oh,and the short answer is.. a trading system already has been designed so that the more people who use it the better it becomes- its called the stockmarket. And the self fulfilling prophecy is that people like goldman sachs end up with all your money!!

[Frank]

hi mitsubishi,

I was the first one who responded to this thread as I didn't understand the right angle part --- I don't see right angles on your original chart -- I see angles that are less than 90 degrees. Since then I looked through some posts and see something about 30 and 60 degree angles adding up to 90 degrees.

My initial post was asking you to realize that the scaling of the chart, in addition to the angles, was what was driving the projections. I hope this helped you on your way to financial freedom. It apparently did.

Now, I see lots of charts you have posted with various angles and I see that you often draw a line to a morning reversal price and then it extends from the reversal point directionally the other way.

I assume in real-time, you are positioning and re-positioning yourself to have a trade that lines up with these directional price objectives.

What I still don't understand is -- what is your theory on why your default 1-min scaling (with angle-based price objectives highly dependent on that) will persist in the future? I guess to some extent if you vary the lines from 30 to 60 degrees, there will be an offset to a higher or lower S&P absolute level and that these factors will cancel each other out and you still can create your lines.

Personally, I think that if this is working for you -- my suspicion is that it's because of something you innately understand about the markets more than anything your price projections are telling you.

If you can more clearly state when you do a 30 degree line and when you do a 60 degree line -- that might help clear things up

[mitsubishi]

Originally Posted by Frank »

hi mitsubishi,

I was the first one who responded to this thread as I didn't understand the right angle part --- I don't see right angles on your original chart -- I see angles that are less than 90 degrees. Since then I looked through some posts and see something about 30 and 60 degree angles adding up to 90 degrees.

My initial post was asking you to realize that the scaling of the chart, in addition to the angles, was what was driving the projections. I hope this helped you on your way to financial freedom. It apparently did.

Now, I see lots of charts you have posted with various angles and I see that you often draw a line to a morning reversal price and then it extends from the reversal point directionally the other way.

I assume in real-time, you are positioning and re-positioning yourself to have a trade that lines up with these directional price objectives.

What I still don't understand is -- what is your theory on why your default 1-min scaling (with angle-based price objectives highly dependent on that) will persist in the future? I guess to some extent if you vary the lines from 30 to 60 degrees, there will be an offset to a higher or lower S&P absolute level and that these factors will cancel each other out and you still can create your lines.

Personally, I think that if this is working for you -- my suspicion is that it's because of something you innately understand about the markets more than anything your price projections are telling you.

If you can more clearly state when you do a 30 degree line and when you do a 60 degree line -- that might help clear things up

Thanks frank.Yes i do remember you as an early responder and i appreciate the fact that your intent was to help.It's difficult for me now to get into too much detail for obvious reasons.I take on board your comment about how i am reading the market being more important than the projections and the bottom line (scuse the pun) is unless you understand the market every tool is useless.
I will tell you what the biggest problem was with my initial efforts here was,and that is timeframe.As with other methods,the lower the timeframe,the more noise and less clarity,and hence you have too many lines inside an intraday chart.By moving to a bigger timeframe the picture becomes clearer in several ways and then you can drill down again as the need arises.An associated problem was,before you can project a line you need to be certain that you are looking at a high/low and you cant know that for certain in real time.Even lines projected from prev days have to connect with what may/may not be todays high/low.
The difference now is that once you have several lines already connected in the past they form part of what will become a complete 'pattern' and that can only happen at one price and time in the future.(and another set will create an alternative 'pattern') One pattern will complete if we go short,another if we go long.
The absolute beauty of this model is that the geometry predicts the price and time and the maths confirms that price when it is superimposed on the pattern. The bigger the pattern the slower the signal but bigger price target and more certainty and the more time you have in advance of it occuring ,so you can use other analysis to confirm and you dont need to chase the market.You can let it start it's journey unless you are being more speculative (greedy!) if you know the target price you know if its worth getting on board.
This short trade i am holding now ,for example.The pattern started developing at the beginning of the month but there is no way you would know that because you have to have several price points before you can complete the pattern and superimpose the maths to give you the target-which will be exact time/price.But as we know the market develops fractuals and these geometric patterns vary in size,so in some cases you can predict a price within a 2 day period for example..But in every case most of the pattern must develop before you can identify the target.Unlike the prev stuff here,in every case you have certainty with past prices and there can only be one possibilty. But the smaller the time frame,the more uncompleted fractuals and less certainty.If you take today,i identified the probable high which was correct, but my probable low was way way out because the low we made completed the pattern from the beginning of the month.But who knew what would happen today? So i may well have been trying to catch a falling knife today if i hadn't already been short from 1028 2 days ago and the only trade i did today was short the morning high down to 1020..leaving a lot of money on the table.No escape then from the usual traders problems,but a lot better off than when i started this thread.Had the low been 1017 it would have completed a small fractual and been perfect maths/geometry.You still could have gone long 1017-27.(btw the maths i am referring to does NOT refer to the rule of ten.)Hope you made money today. Btw, the fractuals part probably answers your question why 1 min timeframe persists....

[mitsubishi]

Tues 2nd sept-If we stay in positive territory i have a possible price target of 1020... as usual i dont see how it can get hit but i suppose 1018 is resistance and its near enough for a stop run. My predicted number 0f 998 for today has been hit,but we have been lower so 998 cannot be the low ...it could be indicating the high but we have been slightly past that.I have closed my short from 1028 at 999 as there is this doubt about today.I would go short 1018/20 should we get there..

[mitsubishi]

Sept 3rd- Todays projected targets are 1013 1005 upper range 993 mid range 983 lower range.I would go short 1013 today though 1005 is r-10 above prev close and a valid short according to R-10