[nhallett]

There are only a handful of people who give a darn about supplying traders with a way to be more disciplined and focused in their trading. I'm one of them, so I think I know why there are so few of us.

Heck, I'm in the business of supplying traders with a tool to help improve the mental side of the trading equation… the “human” element. With (what I think) is such an important service, why am I out here virtually alone?

A couple of reasons.

First, although most traders will admit that the mental part of trading is key to winning in the long-term, most believe they can “gut it up” and just “shake it off” when negative emotions and behaviors rear their ugly heads. They don't need a shrink. They know what they need to do and by-cracky, they'll do what needs to be done without any help! I call this the Macho Syndrome.

So, I get resistance from those that need it most, the emotionally out-of-control trader.

Second, a common mindset is that the primary key to being a successful trader is hooking your wagon to a guru or trading system and then following that system to riches. The problem is that all (even great) trading systems experience draw-downs and you wind up blaming the system for losing rather than doing what is painful for some… blaming yourself (for not having the courage to trade through adversity)!

So here I am, preaching pain.

“It's not your system, it's you!” To the trader with low self-confidence, those words can cut like a knife.

“How about paying more attention to the mental/emotional part of trading?” To the trader with low self-esteem, I'd be accusing him/her of having something wrong with him/her.

Being the Shepard of the mental/emotional aspect of trading is not an easy job. But it's rewarding.

For those who start paying REAL ATTENTION to the mental part of trading, results can improve rapidly.

They start saying,

“How can I improve as a trader?

“How can I make sure that the only variable to losing and winning is my system and not me?”

When was the last time you asked yourself these important questions?

It's not all about changing your system; tweek, tweek, tweek.

My guess is that it's about changing YOU.

So, for me, I love what I do.

Can anybody hear me?

My best,
Norman Hallett

[steve46]

Well you certainly gave it "the old college try" Norman

Unfortunately if one does not have an edge (a replicable, established mathematical advantage) that they can execute, it won't matter how disciplined they are...in fact one might suggest that a disciplined trader using a bad or even a mediocre system (a system without a mathematical edge) would actually bleed his or her account dry sooner, because part of that discipline is to take every trade.....Also a system without a mathematical edge will probably experience longer losing streaks then the trader can anticipate making it psychologically difficult to trade........ah well, again nice try....perhaps a little more thought on the subject will bring you around..

Now one might ask, why so harsh (I would not but some people would feel that way) and my reply ladies/gentlemen is that a person who in his "preamble" claims to be "one of the few" blah blah blah, should in theory be better educated that this....after all this is something that any journeyman trader should be able to "prove" to him/herself.

I don't expect you to say "oh my it seems I overlooked those points, well back to the drawing board and thanks so much"....so I will simply go my own way while you explain how you are "right after all"

Please do go right ahead with your comments

Cheers
Steve

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by nhallett »

First, although most traders will admit that the mental part of trading is key to winning in the long-term, most believe they can “gut it up” and just “shake it off” when negative emotions and behaviors rear their ugly heads. They don't need a shrink. They know what they need to do and by-cracky, they'll do what needs to be done without any help! I call this the Macho Syndrome.

So, I get resistance from those that need it most, the emotionally out-of-control trader.

Norman

I don't think it's such a bad thing to "gut it up" as you say. Your label "Macho Syndrome" is a little too presumptuous for me. It is not necessarily a Macho activity to not quit, to not give up, to strive until the day of success.

Might it not be possible for traders to experience the breakthrough AFTER "gutting it up" for long enough that they begin to take a serious look at the other things they are doing too, and making corrections there?

Traders need not necessarily be "out of control" (define "out of control" for me) if they are having a problem reaching goals.

You mentioned that "most traders will admit that the mental part of trading is key to winning in the long-term" ... they might - but I don't. It may play a part, but I think the use of the word "key" might be a fair way beneath the three points I make below. I understand how, from your perspective, it would be nice to have that aspect reach the zenith.

Facts speak for themselves - there are not a great number of traders who are putting up their hands in support of these kinds of notions - Mark Douglas had a go, but the consensus these days is that his ideas, while nice, don't actually help many traders make a true difference over time. His stuff sold well for a time, because he was the first kid on the block to get it into print, and led the herd.

Originally Posted by nhallett »

Second, a common mindset is that the primary key to being a successful trader is hooking your wagon to a guru or trading system and then following that system to riches. The problem is that all (even great) trading systems experience draw-downs and you wind up blaming the system for losing rather than doing what is painful for some… blaming yourself (for not having the courage to trade through adversity)!

Norman Hallett

Most serious traders may have passed that simple point in their pilgrimage a long time back. In fact I don't know any struggling traders who still believe that hooking up to a guru/strategy/system ... etc ... is in any way "the pathway to riches."
I class myself as a struggling trader, even though I no longer have the persisting losses of the past. I no longer have the big drawdown either.

These days I simply accept that the markets should be played by those who have:

a) The capital to trade through market activity (trend/range)
b) A strategy that delivers a positive expectation (edge/opportunity)
c) No need of the money (other means of subsistence independent of trading)

Trading financial markets should not be attempted by those with less than $20,000 and the above attributes. To do so is ok, but the mindset should include words like "hobby," "gamble" and so on.

Further, I am not aware of any single trader who is walking "the pathway to riches" (your words, not mine) following some decent head work either by yourself or some other well-known psychologist who frequents this forum.

It may well be that there are such creatures on the pathway to riches, but it is doubtful that you will find a psychologist amongst them. Psychologists are business people. Traders trade. I don't know any psychologists who trade successfully, though FXGirl says she does.

Originally Posted by steve46 »

Unfortunately if one does not have an edge (a replicable, established mathematical advantage) that they can execute, it won't matter how disciplined they are...in fact one might suggest that a disciplined trader using a bad or even a mediocre system (a system without a mathematical edge) would actually bleed his or her account dry sooner, because part of that discipline is to take every trade.

Steve

Given that I know you are a trader who walks the talk, I find your comments more acceptable. Your posts and trading examples are all over this forum, but for me, I am still unable to understand where you are coming from.

That is not meant to be a criticism of you or your methodology. But without also enrolling in your course, or becoming one of your students, I am destined to never being able to understand your strategy clearly enough to make even one trade successfully.

In that respect, you are in the same boat as Norman - a man with a mission ... an agenda?

I happen to respect you and Norman for what you do, but thanks for the insight.
In hindsight I might be glad I declined.
It might explain why I don't win (enough) at trading ... but I don't lose either.

Still open, still looking, still trying, still waiting for Norman's "key."

"Gutting it up" has placed me closer to where I want to be than the intervention of any single person.

Why would I change that now?

There isn't an answer that defines it (ie why I would want to change anything), and still be classed as a civil response to the question!

[steve46]

Ingot

I am a limited human being, who happens to be very, very good at this profession...I can't be all things to all people however...and I don't intend to try...I think the only thing a person can do is to evaluate whether they are making progress toward their goals....it is a question we all have to ask ourselves...My own experience is that most if not all the people who claim they have something authoritative to say (on the subject of trading anyway) upon closer examination, are simply pretenders....sorry to be so harsh but that is probably as close to the bald truth as you are going to get..I have been through it all, from losing to winning and all I can do is suggest to people that I might be able to help...the rest is up to the individual....

Best of luck to you
Steve

[BlowFish]

One has to ask oneself whether a vendor of 'self help' type products is best equipped to 'supply traders with a way to be more disciplined and focused in their trading.' One thing you can say about Hallett is that he certainly understands internet marketing.

I would also question whether there are only a 'handful of people that give a darn'. There are a plethora of people that provide these sorts of products and services to traders. Many are psychologists (with recognised professional qualifications such as a PhD) that have chosen to specialise in the (lucrative) trading arena. One has to assume they 'give a darn' when there income depends on it.

[Ingot54]

Originally Posted by steve46 »

My own experience is that most if not all the people who claim they have something authoritative to say (on the subject of trading anyway) upon closer examination, are simply pretenders....

Steve

I understand why you might use the word "pretenders"

But the fact is that many of us who have yet to tread the "pathway to riches" DO know something about trading. Many of us HAVE turned our trading around. So why would we not wish to share those things that have been shown to help us already? Is this not another step along that pathway?

It takes time to learn the art of trading.

Reading, discussing, rebuking and receiving rebuke, contributing and practising, winning and losing, attempting and failing, hannging in, tweaking, focusing, reviewing, testing and so on ... and on ...

I do think the word "pretend" IS a little harsh.
Because these "pretenders" will one day break through, many of them.

And without the forums and the posts, the teachers and the guru's, the strategies and the strategists, the charts, blogs, journals, mentors, coaches and yes even the psychologists, the whole industry would be in a sorry state.

Under such conditions even you would be struggling, as you would be forced to compete with traders who have deeper pockets, better software, more experience, better inside information and on and on.

You wouldn't have the fodder you now have - those pretenders who are currently your easy pickings, your bread and butter, simply because you see them as pretenders. These little traders who are losing their money are the other side of your trades, and you see them as pretenders.

I understand that. Most of what is written on forums is simply stuff that people have read in various trading books, and it is being discussed and regurgitated. If that is pretending, then it means the authors of those books are probably charlatans and misleading their readers. Posting things is a means to crystallise the understanding each writer has, and as such they leave themselves open to the critique of their peers.

This is something lurkers on forums miss out on - they fail to expose their thoughts to others, and so fail to receive the rebuke or the confirmation that might be the next step for them. Much of what I have ever written on forums could be regarded as taken from my own experiences in trading. As to whether there is any authority about it - only a reader can confer that kind of status. I have never claimed to be an authority on anything.

But being labelled a pretender will not deter me from "faking it until I'm making it." I don't see anything fake in writing about something I believe enough to share with others whom I regard as fellow travelers.

You may not have aimed the word directly at me - I don't think you did - but it stands that without the pretenders, forums would never be the venue where people like yourself find an audience.

[Pony]

As far as out of control, I can only say Mark Barton. I only have one comment on this though. I think this article would have gone over better if it weren't so black and white. Every successful trader knows that there is a psychological aspect to this profession (I'm not a successful trader, I've made 9 trades in the past 7 years) My point being is when your title completely disregards that a good trading system is needed, you're going to get bashed for it.

[BlowFish]

Originally Posted by Ingot54 »

I do think the word "pretend" IS a little harsh.

Harsh but true. Many people (especially vendors) make false claims about their trading 'credentials'. The original meaning of pretender was anyone who made a claim to the throne (legitimately or fabricated) in common use nowadays it means to make false claim. Just to be clear I am not suggesting Normans claims are false, just that many trading vendors are.

Originally Posted by Ingot54 »

Because these "pretenders" will one day break through, many of them.

Sadly most will not. The point is that it does not vindicate them being a pretender in the past.

Apologies, I am in a particularly sceptical mood today....I blame the hangover