Welcome to the Traders Laboratory.

Money Management Risk and money management related topics.

Reply
Old 04-06-2011, 08:33 AM   #17

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,149
Ignore this user

Thanks: 576
Thanked 401 Times in 237 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouse »
If you take Paul tudor jones...He had some great early years, I suppose, and many many mediocre and losing years. If he had to rely on his trading, he would live in a duplex instead of a mansion on the water in Greenwich CT.
Can you expand on what you know about PTJ? I was under the (perhaps misguided) impression that PTJ has an excellent long-term track record...one of the best among high-profile traders/fund managers.
Cory2679 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 09:59 AM   #18

MightyMouse's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Lumber Yard
Posts: 2,336
Ignore this user

Thanks: 82
Thanked 599 Times in 444 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory2679 »
Can you expand on what you know about PTJ? I was under the (perhaps misguided) impression that PTJ has an excellent long-term track record...one of the best among high-profile traders/fund managers.
Managed Futures Performance Rankings | Managed Futures

I do not know if these are all his funds.
MightyMouse is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 10:30 AM   #19

Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,149
Ignore this user

Thanks: 576
Thanked 401 Times in 237 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyMouse »
Managed Futures Performance Rankings | Managed Futures

I do not know if these are all his funds.
Neither of those fund are actually directly ran by PTJ...they're ran by Steve Evans.

While they might seem mediocre averaged out over time, they can be complimentary and work something like a hedge with other funds...for example, their Raptor global equities fund was down 20% in 2008 (no surprise), but the Tensor fund (quant) was up 35%.

Tudor Corp.'s flagship fund is their BVI fund, which prior to the crisis, averaged something like 25%/year over about 20 years.

Tudor is an interesting firm because today it's really more like a large trading firm than a big pool of money managed soley by PTJ (like Soros, Robertson, etc.). He's said that if he quit tomorrow, his firm could continue on without missing a beat.

I have a special interest in PTJ because he once spoke to my class in college via video conference. He was a pretty cool guy. He told the class, if you were going to trade and be stranded on an island, and you could only take fundamental or technical analysis with you, which one would you take? Overwhelmingly the class said fundamental (of course...a college finance class), and he said, WRONG! lol

He spoke to us around the time of the crisis...he was frustrated with some of the portfolio managers in his firm for holding onto holdings that were in major downtrends, etc. He showed 50-day and 200-day moving averages and called stocks that were under both something, I can't remember, but some of his portfolio managers will still holding onto stocks that had fallen under both and that made him mad. lol
Cory2679 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 11:51 AM   #20

TimRacette's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 310
Ignore this user

Thanks: 14
Thanked 148 Times in 82 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

You can't beat the market, just like you can't beat the game of blackjack, you can only outperform it for periods of time by manipulating the odds.
TimRacette is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 03:18 PM   #21

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 1,600
Ignore this user

Thanks: 13
Thanked 758 Times in 441 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory2679 »
Neither of those fund are actually directly ran by PTJ...they're ran by Steve Evans.

While they might seem mediocre averaged out over time, they can be complimentary and work something like a hedge with other funds...for example, their Raptor global equities fund was down 20% in 2008 (no surprise), but the Tensor fund (quant) was up 35%.

Tudor Corp.'s flagship fund is their BVI fund, which prior to the crisis, averaged something like 25%/year over about 20 years.

Tudor is an interesting firm because today it's really more like a large trading firm than a big pool of money managed soley by PTJ (like Soros, Robertson, etc.). He's said that if he quit tomorrow, his firm could continue on without missing a beat.

I have a special interest in PTJ because he once spoke to my class in college via video conference. He was a pretty cool guy. He told the class, if you were going to trade and be stranded on an island, and you could only take fundamental or technical analysis with you, which one would you take? Overwhelmingly the class said fundamental (of course...a college finance class), and he said, WRONG! lol

He spoke to us around the time of the crisis...he was frustrated with some of the portfolio managers in his firm for holding onto holdings that were in major downtrends, etc. He showed 50-day and 200-day moving averages and called stocks that were under both something, I can't remember, but some of his portfolio managers will still holding onto stocks that had fallen under both and that made him mad. lol
Hello Cory

Mr. Jones has a natural talent....he was born into money and learned how to make it, but looking at how human behavior affects the markets....at this point in his career I am guessing his estate is worth about 5-6 billion...You don't get to that point by careless or wild speculation.

Like yourself, I find it interesting that people are willing to comment when they don't even know who the decsion makers are within his organization. Its just laughable...

If you study his moves, you will see that he is disciplined. If you have the opportunity, take a look at some of the charts for his holdings. The disclosure documents for larger holdings can give you clues as to when and under what conditions his managers pull the trigger...and the same for exits....it takes some effort to get the data but it is worth is if you are a long term investor.

In terms of risk, he has a good feel for portfolio limits (max risk on a portfolio level) and he knows the individual issues well enough that he has managed to stay out of trouble (look at what happened to Julian Robertson for instance).

Best of luck to you
steve46 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to steve46 For This Useful Post:
Cory2679 (04-06-2011)
Old 04-06-2011, 03:55 PM   #22

MightyMouse's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Lumber Yard
Posts: 2,336
Ignore this user

Thanks: 82
Thanked 599 Times in 444 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory2679 »
Neither of those fund are actually directly ran by PTJ...they're ran by Steve Evans.

While they might seem mediocre averaged out over time, they can be complimentary and work something like a hedge with other funds...for example, their Raptor global equities fund was down 20% in 2008 (no surprise), but the Tensor fund (quant) was up 35%.

Tudor Corp.'s flagship fund is their BVI fund, which prior to the crisis, averaged something like 25%/year over about 20 years.

Tudor is an interesting firm because today it's really more like a large trading firm than a big pool of money managed soley by PTJ (like Soros, Robertson, etc.). He's said that if he quit tomorrow, his firm could continue on without missing a beat.

I have a special interest in PTJ because he once spoke to my class in college via video conference. He was a pretty cool guy. He told the class, if you were going to trade and be stranded on an island, and you could only take fundamental or technical analysis with you, which one would you take? Overwhelmingly the class said fundamental (of course...a college finance class), and he said, WRONG! lol

He spoke to us around the time of the crisis...he was frustrated with some of the portfolio managers in his firm for holding onto holdings that were in major downtrends, etc. He showed 50-day and 200-day moving averages and called stocks that were under both something, I can't remember, but some of his portfolio managers will still holding onto stocks that had fallen under both and that made him mad. lol
Cory,

I am sure that his A, B, or C funds have objectives that are quite different from each other and will, therefore have differing returns. I think 25% profit is great, but you need a boat load of capital to survive on a return like that if you are an independent trader. The BVI fund ended up getting split and I am not sure what ended up happening to it. So, it will be difficult to say what ended up happening to that fund. I think the investments may have been toxic but again I am not sure. My point was that these high profile traders all have the same ups and downs that we do if they are not breaking rules and end up being billionaires because of the fees the collect and not from shear ror.

They pay lots of money to PR firms, sponsor charities, etc to gain exposure to persons who can drive money to their firms. Its a different game for them since they participate on the upside, but do not participate on the downside.

MM
MightyMouse is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 07:44 PM   #23
Sky Blocks Champion

SIUYA's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: a city of canals
Posts: 2,222
Ignore this user

Thanks: 606
Thanked 926 Times in 638 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

MM - I agree with you regards survivorship bias, and the fact that wall street is there to line their own pockets (what industry isn't).
however I dont think you give enough credit to the likes of Soros and Jones for its the effect of compounding that is important. These guys maybe would not have the fortunes they have if they did not have funds - as they get to leverage other peoples money as well, but they would still have been spectacularly successful at the same time.....plus I lot of their funds under management for some of these guys is their own.
I for one would like to have access to more of these guys, place small amounts of money with them and watch it grow over the 10-20 years. (not over a few years)
SIUYA is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2011, 09:03 PM   #24

MightyMouse's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Lumber Yard
Posts: 2,336
Ignore this user

Thanks: 82
Thanked 599 Times in 444 Posts

Re: Trading for a Living

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIUYA »
MM - I agree with you regards survivorship bias, and the fact that wall street is there to line their own pockets (what industry isn't).
however I dont think you give enough credit to the likes of Soros and Jones for its the effect of compounding that is important. These guys maybe would not have the fortunes they have if they did not have funds - as they get to leverage other peoples money as well, but they would still have been spectacularly successful at the same time.....plus I lot of their funds under management for some of these guys is their own.
I for one would like to have access to more of these guys, place small amounts of money with them and watch it grow over the 10-20 years. (not over a few years)
Siuya,

Nice of you to make a comment after a long day of fighting black marlin off the Great Coral Reef. If I had your money I would throw mine away.

I do give these guys lots of credit. Earning double digit returns for the period of time that they have been able to do it is iconic. No doubt.

MM
MightyMouse is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MightyMouse For This Useful Post:
SIUYA (04-07-2011)

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Help Others By Rating This Thread
Help Others By Rating This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Auto Trading with MultiCharts on Forex Market Yakalfer Automated Trading 4 11-25-2012 01:44 PM
Trading Firms Put Their Money on Poker Experts macdfx Trading and the Markets 10 11-16-2010 01:17 AM
Simple Forex Trading Strategies - The Key To Profitable Trading Nial Fuller Trading 3 10-26-2010 01:12 AM
The Truth of Trading daedalus Beginners Forum 100 07-28-2010 04:40 PM
Quotes from 100% Automated Independent Retail Trader AgeKay Automated Trading 28 07-06-2010 09:34 AM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:27 PM.
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CS to VB integration by DeskLancer
2006-2011 Traders Laboratory, All Rights Reserved.