[NoSquigglyLines]

Originally Posted by qewcool »

I also find it funny that the answer from the dalton course is the most cryptic and convoluted answer of the thread while macdougall answer is straight-forward, simple and efficient.

I don't mean this to be inflammatory but I believe you may have missed the point of Dalton's writing and teaching.

[qewcool]

Originally Posted by NoSquigglyLines »

I don't mean this to be inflammatory but I believe you may have missed the point of Dalton's writing and teaching.

Not a problem. We all have different opinions and I respect all of them
I am not saying I dont appreciate Dalton books. I read the second book , appreciate it a lot for learning market profile, and would recommend with no problem.

Im just saying that sometimes some answers seems convoluted when it could be more straightforward, succinct or efficient if you prefer.

Maybe you can detail the point that I overlooked in the context of the subject of this thread as constructive criticism.

[BlowFish]

Originally Posted by qewcool »

I think macdougall answers shows understanding of the MP concepts the most.

The key goal of MP is to find indeed balance and acceptance of a price level that will facilitate trade (rotation).

A spike in volume not confirmed by time cannot be a control price that will serve as trade facilitator. It is in fact a symptom of imbalance which is the opposite of the idea of a POC.

I also find it funny that the answer from the dalton course is the most cryptic and convoluted answer of the thread while macdougall answer is straight-forward, simple and efficient.

Just because price languishes within a bracket for a long period of time does not mean trade is being facilitated. There is a good chance that is being but who knows? Time is a proxy. If you have heavy volume within a bracket you know trade is being facilitated.

[NoSquigglyLines]

I was more picking up on what you wrote to be honest. You stated that Omni's answer was cryptic and convoluted and you preferred the simple straightforward and efficient.

From what I read on this board and others, many traders are looking for simple concrete rules to help them understand/trade the markets. And when those rules 'fail' they begin a further search for 'better' rules. Throughout Markets in Profile it is stressed that context is paramount, and the example given that a fish flopping around the dock looks ridiculous until you see the same movement in the context of water.

I believe that is the point Omni was making when describing Dalton's approach. You can use TPO or Volume or whatever method you like, and you can ascribe some rules to them, but you must be aware of the bigger picture and view everything in context. And when the market does not behave as you anticipated, you should view that as important information that you need to process and make sense of, rather than simply a rule that has failed.

I've attached an image showing the NQ from 15th/16th June and the Globex session between them. In the Globex session (white TPOs) the green value area is TPO based and the pink value area is volume based. Is it better to use TPO, Volume, or be aware of both?

I guess this is probably a cryptic and convoluted answer ... so please accept my apologies for that. I hope this answers your question but I suspect it may just highlight our different views. My basic point is that throughout both his books Dalton frequently opines that, in his view, trading is rarely simple and straightforward and those who treat it as such will probably fail. So when you write that his way of looking at things seems cryptic and convoluted, and you prefer simple straightforward and efficient, I think you are placing yourself in that majority he describes.

Disclaimer: Many times I read posts on forums that are written as if they are from the perspective of a highly experienced millionaire trader, imparting their wisdom to all whilst sipping cocktails from the deck of their sunseeker. In most cases another thread tends to reveal that the writer in fact just took up trading last week. I am no millionaire trader, and I don't own a yacht. Just trying to make sense of all this like most others on this forum.

[BlowFish]

Originally Posted by NoSquigglyLines »

Disclaimer: Many times I read posts on forums that are written as if they are from the perspective of a highly experienced millionaire trader, imparting their wisdom to all whilst sipping cocktails from the deck of their sunseeker. In most cases another thread tends to reveal that the writer in fact just took up trading last week. I am no millionaire trader, and I don't own a yacht. Just trying to make sense of all this like most others on this forum.

The 'truth' is the truth Sadly quite a few people regurgitate opinions (usually read somewhere) as 'facts'. Really the best thing to do is use what appeals to you using your own (empirical) research. Things like VAH and VAL 'work' even though you can challenge some of the premises that there construction is based upon. I guess this suggests that if enough people believe in something it becomes that thing

[clmacdougall]

I find it helpful to think of the value area as a place where price is most likely to return to or trade through, but it's value is in it's proven magnetic ability.
Using a volume spike to determine it's center would be akin to deciding that because a man spent $30,000 at a car dealership that he would return to that spot the next day as he had spent so much money there the previous day.
It's far more likely that he would in fact be at Wal Mart the next day as the pattern of rotation between his house and Wal Mart is a proven rotation based upon his historical back and forth pattern between those two points.
The discovery of the power of "price rotation," to display future probabilities of where price may next be is in my mind what Market Profile is all about but I am still a student and do so appreciate both the Dalton books, the Steidlmayer book and the little known gem "Value Based Power Trading" by Jones father, Donald Jones of Cisco.

[BlowFish]

It's more like if a man looks in a car dealership window for an hour but does not buy a car it tells you nothing about 'value'. If he buys a car (and other buyers do as well) at a price that does tell you something about value. Without trades taking place (volume) you have no consensus on value.

I agree with your first statement the VAH VAL are very important because so many traders watch them. However I believe they are self fulfilling. They are 'bogus' due to a couple of assumptions made in there construction that are just not true. Despite that they are very useful heuristics. In short they still 'work' so who cares right?

[clmacdougall]

Blowfish, you have a good point, here's how I worked around that issue. I came to the conclusion that trading had two major principles, the first is, "only play follow the leader," the second is, "never trust minor league stats."
I may be wrong in this next statement but so far I have found that commodities are follower markets. No matter the talk about how far they've come, they are ruled by the movements of either the dollar or the stock market.
So I avoid the commodity markets on the premise that you cannot trust them to fulfill moves which they start as they are closely watching the bigger markets instead of trending on their own merit.
Of the markets left to trade I've so far found currencies hard to apply MP to so I avoid them. Leaving me with only the stock market of which when trading futures contracts the ES most resembles the leader.
The next question is inevitably, "between what hours do I trust the MP development to most represent the concensus of the day?" The answer is simple and that is 8:30 - 15:15 cst. Volume proves this the only reliable time of the day to draw the MP from. This falls under my second rule. The stats of a minor league pitcher can look great until that same pitcher faces major league batters and is quickly torn to shreds. I think the overnite market is the minor leagues, so I pay no attention to it for any MP info at all.
In this way volume does play a part, but only as the starting and finishing pistol for your reliable MP formation through price rotation during the hours where the major league players are clearly visible.
Just my opinion so far, I'm open to learn otherwise.