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Hello,

 

I am interested in learning market profile but I am not sure where to get started as I don't know almost anything about it and I really need something that explains the basics. It would be greatly appreciated if you guys could recommend me any good book that will be suitable for beginners or any online resources!

 

Thank you so much for your help!

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Hello,

 

I am interested in learning market profile but I am not sure where to get started as I don't know almost anything about it and I really need something that explains the basics. It would be greatly appreciated if you guys could recommend me any good book that will be suitable for beginners or any online resources!

 

Thank you so much for your help!

 

Hi 156 -

 

the two primary texts i would recommend would be Mind Over Markets and Markets In Profile, both by Jim Dalton.

 

i would also recommend Steidlmayer On Markets.

 

Jim Dalton also has a list of resources over at the DLC Profiles site. one of the resources listed is for a presentation Jim gave on Market Profile.

 

i don't know how capably i can convey this to you now, but i would definitely recommend keeping a couple of things in mind as you go along. first, Market Profile is not all about entries and exits. second, Market Profile is about understanding market generated behavioral information. third, context is king; all things are not created equally in the market and studying Market Profile can facilitate that understanding.

 

i hope this is helpful and that yours is a positive journey.

 

take care -

 

omni

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I am a beginner and am reading Trading and Exchanges: Market Microstructure for Practitioners by Larry Harris. This book is amazing. It will not teach you about market profile, but it will teach you everything you need to know about the markets and trading.

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Hi 156,

 

I agree with Omni.

Just take the time to read "Mind over Markets" and "Markets in Profile" a couple of times (or more).

 

I would first go for the free CBOT free handbook, that will give you the basis, but you will have to be patient to go through the entire manual!

 

Nice avatar! (I have a GTV)

 

Mike

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Personally if I wanted to "learn MP" I'd read the lot it's not like its an extensive list. If I was limited to one I'd go with one of the Daltons though haven't picked up P.S.'s latest book. having said that I don't use MP!

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Hi,

 

A great resource to really dig deep into the Market Profile concept is Donald L.Jones book Value-Based Power Trading, I am using it a lot and his website is of great help as well, my next book in line is Mind over Market it was written by James F.Dalton and Donald's son Eric T Jones. Tom Alexander has written a very nice small book called "Practical Trading Applications of Market Profile", his 10 day ATR potential concept is worth the reading, it is a very nice summary about Market Profile and how to use them. But my all time favorite is Value-Based Power Trading, the concept to use the overlay demand curve MP's like 3days, 5 days, 10days & 20days is a great way to pinpoint trends and breakouts in advance.

 

I am using footprint Bid Ask charts to read the orderflow in relation to Market Profile rotation points, TPO high and low volume points.

 

CISCO Futures

http://www.alexandertrading.com

 

Cheers

 

Thomas

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Got it a week ago and almost done it, a pretty good read, I've read every book and article there is on MP and this did add an ease and flow to understanding how to use other market generated info along with MP in order to look for good risk to reward entries.

Ultimately you are going to have to put the greatest importance on his key phrase " do the work for yourself."

He encourages self study and your own angle of applying MP. Did a free week on his website,and thought it was really good. Hope this helps.

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It does help quite a bit clmac. Thank you for the detailed commentary. I enjoy Dalton's books but was curious if there was anything out there that discussed more tactical uses of the profile, and was updated to incorporate the increased activity in the 24hr markets, etc.

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I liked Tom Alexanders Book "Practical Applications to Market Profile"! It really helped me with my risk management to be more agressive with entries during the first hour (IB) and less agressive after the IB as about 2/3 of the time the High or Low is put in in the first hour.

A great trade f.e. is when you are in an overall higher TF downtrend and you trade up to a naked POC and you see sellers stepping in to take a short. If this happens to be in the first hour (IB) then that is a HIGH probability short trade with awesome risk:reward ratio because now its likely that the current low of the day will be taken out. As Tom stated in his book, 95% of trading days have range extension so if you caught the possible high of the day, which is not so unlikely with the set-up i descibed above, then chances are you will make a new low.

I use oderflow to manage my entries!

Other books I can recommend on MP are the Daltons books (Mind over Markets, Markets in Profile)! I havent read Don Jones, as they dont ship overseas :-( but im trying to get it somehow!

Hope this was useful!

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I've read alot of books on Market Profile

1. CBOT Market Profile Study Guide

2. Markets and Market Logic

3. Value Based Power Trading

4. 141 West Jackson

5. Practical Trading Applications of Market Profile

6. Mind Over Markets

7. Steidlmayer on Markets 1st edition

8. Steidlmayer on Markets 2nd edition

9. Markets in Profile

10. Markets 101

 

Only 2 were worthwhile. Firstly you must read "Markets and Market Logic" and then read "141 West Jackson (A Journey Through Trading Discoveries)". None of the others are as powerful or impacting as the ones I've mentioned. Hope this helps.

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Great recommendation clmacdougall.

 

I have read both of Dalton's books and found them interesting but I didn't find them really insightful - perhaps they are but they didn't click for me in a big way.

 

After seeing your post I got a copy of 141 West Jackson and can finally understand why people are so impressed with Peter Steidlmayer. Brilliantly insightful and adapting to the changes in the market - not the one trick pony that some self-professed trading geniuses and gurus seem to be but a great trading mind. I'm only at page 51 and really looking forward to the rest of the book.

 

Thanks.

 

 

I've read alot of books on Market Profile

1. CBOT Market Profile Study Guide

2. Markets and Market Logic

3. Value Based Power Trading

4. 141 West Jackson

5. Practical Trading Applications of Market Profile

6. Mind Over Markets

7. Steidlmayer on Markets 1st edition

8. Steidlmayer on Markets 2nd edition

9. Markets in Profile

10. Markets 101

 

Only 2 were worthwhile. Firstly you must read "Markets and Market Logic" and then read "141 West Jackson (A Journey Through Trading Discoveries)". None of the others are as powerful or impacting as the ones I've mentioned. Hope this helps.

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No trouble Kiwi, glad to be of some help. Please do try and read, "Markets and Market Logic," it really is a great read as well.

Unfortunately Steidlmayer is so smart that he found out what many followers of MP discovered as well, it's not at all as useful as it was thought to be initially. He has been quoted in one of his most recent interviews as saying:

"Steidlmayer says today markets don't actively form profiles each day because "imbalances," or directional moves, are now so overwhelming the market can't integrate them and form an efficient price by day's end as it did 40 years ago."

The interviewer went further to ask him' " What would you say to traders who are using Market Profile as a visual display on different charting platforms and are studying your original theories?"

To which Steidlmayer answered,"It's a pass-through cost (i.e., it won't be very helpful), not an asset. I'm building a database with Market Profile . Everyone should have their own database and understand the nature of the markets they're trading, which allows them to create opportunities instead of finding them - a big step."

Yikes, if the originator of Market Profile "Theory" no longer considers his "theories" to be very helpful than why should you? The truth is his theories are only useful when deciding upon the potential best timing for "your" setup but the rest is just nonsense.

Notice that his parting words in that interview places the onus upon the individual trader to understand the nature of the markets which they are trading, something which was outside of the scope of MP and some foolish bell curve for sure.

At least Steidlmayer was man enough to admit the weakness of his "theories" instead of trying to keep it alive for ego's sake.

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I've read alot of books on Market Profile

1. CBOT Market Profile Study Guide

2. Markets and Market Logic

3. Value Based Power Trading

4. 141 West Jackson

5. Practical Trading Applications of Market Profile

6. Mind Over Markets

7. Steidlmayer on Markets 1st edition

8. Steidlmayer on Markets 2nd edition

9. Markets in Profile

10. Markets 101

 

Only 2 were worthwhile. Firstly you must read "Markets and Market Logic" and then read "141 West Jackson (A Journey Through Trading Discoveries)". None of the others are as powerful or impacting as the ones I've mentioned. Hope this helps.

 

LOL. I have a break coming up so I thought I could use some reading material. I looked on Amazon for 141 Wet Jackson. $200 used. No thanks. Google - found it free on pdf in the 2nd-3rd item!

 

Good trade!

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Ya Mind over Markets is where it's at for MP. Here's some other's that offer some great insight ( URL Deleted by Moderator ) MP is not looked at nearly as much as you would think. From a pit trader's perspective it's a great way to trade.

Edited by Mysticforex

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No trouble Kiwi, glad to be of some help. Please do try and read, "Markets and Market Logic," it really is a great read as well.

Unfortunately Steidlmayer is so smart that he found out what many followers of MP discovered as well, it's not at all as useful as it was thought to be initially. He has been quoted in one of his most recent interviews as saying:

"Steidlmayer says today markets don't actively form profiles each day because "imbalances," or directional moves, are now so overwhelming the market can't integrate them and form an efficient price by day's end as it did 40 years ago."

The interviewer went further to ask him' " What would you say to traders who are using Market Profile as a visual display on different charting platforms and are studying your original theories?"

To which Steidlmayer answered,"It's a pass-through cost (i.e., it won't be very helpful), not an asset. I'm building a database with Market Profile . Everyone should have their own database and understand the nature of the markets they're trading, which allows them to create opportunities instead of finding them - a big step."

Yikes, if the originator of Market Profile "Theory" no longer considers his "theories" to be very helpful than why should you? The truth is his theories are only useful when deciding upon the potential best timing for "your" setup but the rest is just nonsense.

Notice that his parting words in that interview places the onus upon the individual trader to understand the nature of the markets which they are trading, something which was outside of the scope of MP and some foolish bell curve for sure.

At least Steidlmayer was man enough to admit the weakness of his "theories" instead of trying to keep it alive for ego's sake.

 

Keep in mind that Steidlmayer tried (and is still trying) to make Market Profile into a mechanical system. The problem with that endeavor is that the markets are not mechanical. The failure rate of traders proves that point. On the other hand Dalton's "Markets in Profile" admits this fact and tries to help you with the current context of the market. Of course that makes trading harder since you have to increase your understanding. Most people don't want to bother with that.

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Not quite sure about your logic DVL. Just because markets are not mechanical does not mean that a mechanical approach to trading a 'chaotic' system can not succeed. You just have to look at the published figures for program trades. Are you saying the failure rate of traders proves that mechanical systems don't work or that it proves that markets are not mechanical? Either way I don't really see it as a logically intact argument.

 

I should quickly add that neither am I a 'mechanical' trader nor am I a MP trader (which probably makes me eminently unqualified to comment :)) but it seems to me that one of the cornerstones concepts of MP is to provide context to the market.

 

I wonder if you have come across the '80% rule'? First time I saw it it was used as justification for a pretty simple approach to trade VAH VAL in a systematic fashion, you don't even really need to know anything about MP. I once saw some pretty rigorous testing that strongly suggested that it could be used mechanically and profitably.

 

Edit: Must read 141 West Jackson, one of these days.seems several people enjoyed it.

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It's funny Blowfish, yourself and the previous poster used the same phrase when describing MP. You both used the word "context." The idea being that background MPinformation gives you an edge when trading forward. The last conversation I had on the phone with Pat Dillard, ""UrmaBlume", which was a long time ago, I asked him that very question, " does the market have context," just as quickly as I asked it he said"no".

MP falsely tries to put that chaos into context but in my opinion it fails miserably. Context has lost alot of people tons of money when they hold onto a concept when losing money until they have no more money left. In my opinion the closer you are to accepting randomness and trading srictly on probabilities the closer you are to being ready to trade.

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Well you have huge hedge funds like Renaissance (not sure of spelling) that have made money for 25 years using mechanical systems. So maybe I was being too general. But I am sure they have to change their systems as the market changes.

I was talking about Steidlmayer. Most people are out there trading mechanically and loosing money. Just stating that fact. If the 80% Rule is that simple, then other traders would pick up on it and that edge would be gone.

 

I have the pdf of 141 West Jackson street and will read it in a few months.

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I wonder if you have come across the '80% rule'? First time I saw it it was used as justification for a pretty simple approach to trade VAH VAL in a systematic fashion, you don't even really need to know anything about MP. I once saw some pretty rigorous testing that strongly suggested that it could be used mechanically and profitably.

 

 

Yea I heard about the '80% rule' from. the trading zone. at a free webinar. I started using intra day value area lines after that. Yesterdays ES range was contained by the previous days value area.

 

clmacdougall,

Trading context is trading the probabilities.

Edited by daVinciLite

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Yea I heard about the '80% rule' from. the trading zone. at a free webinar. I started using intra day value area lines after that. Yesterdays ES range was contained by the previous days value area.

 

I know a guy, Eric Utley who trades Market Profile and 80% rule. It works well with wider stops and on a 30-min chart, from my experience anyways. The fascinating thing is that there are so many ways to enter a trade, manage a trade, and exit the trade, most of which can give the same result.

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The index is also trading above the 75-Bar EMA and at the 65.00 level on the RSI which signals buyers are controlling the market. However, a similar large bullish impulse wave was also formed on the 3rd and 5th of the month and was followed by a correction. Therefore, investors need to be cautious of a bearish breakout which may signal a correction back to the 75-bar EMA (18,165). The medium-term growth and its sustainability will depend on the upcoming earnings data.   Bond yields declined during this morning’s Asian session by 18 points, which is positive for the stock market. However, even with the decline, bond yields remain significantly higher than Monday’s opening yield. This week the 10-year bond yield rose from 4.424 to 4.558, which is a concern. If bond yields again start to rise, the stock market potentially can again become pressured. 25% of the NASDAQ ended the day lower and 75% higher. This gives a clear indication of the sentiment towards the technology sector and reassures traders about the price movement. Another positive was all of the top 12 influential stocks rose in value. Apple, NVIDIA and Broadcom saw the strongest gains, all rising more than 4%. Producer inflation read slightly lower than expectations, however, the index continues to rise. The Producer Price Index rose from 1.6% to 2.1% and the Core PPI from 2.1% to 2.4%. Therefore, it is not indicating inflation will become easier to tackle in the upcoming months. For this reason, investors should note that inflation and the monetary policy is still a risk and can trigger strong bearish impulse waves. EURUSD – The Euro Declines Against Major Currencies The European Central Bank is attempting to concentrate on the positive factors and give no indications of when the committee may opt to cut rates. For example, President Lagarde advises “sales figures” remain stable, but the issue remains they are stably low. Officials said the decline in prices generally confirms medium-term forecasts and is ensured by a decrease in the cost of food and goods. Most experts continue to believe that the first reduction in interest rates will happen in June, and there may be three or four in total during the year. Due to this, the Euro is declining against all currencies including the Pound, Yen and Swiss Franc. The US Dollar Index on the other hand trades 0.39% higher and is almost trading at a 23-week high. Due to this momentum, the price of the exchange continues to indicate a decline in favor of the US Dollar.   Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Michalis Efthymiou Market Analyst HMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. 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