Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

carcanaques

Bookmaker vigorish--who pays and how much?

Recommended Posts

I'm sure quite a few of you are going to place a bet or two tomorrow on NFL games and I wanted to share the inside scoop on the "vig." Unfortunately, I can't do this in a few short paragraphs and I know you guys like detailed explanations and backup, so I'm going to spend a bit of time getting my thoughts together and post it here, rather than the other forum. I hope to have this done before the games start (not that it will have any bearing on your wagers).

 

Stay tuned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that a suggestion or an order? Maybe you should lock this thread because you deem it to have no value? And all the poker talk should also go somewhere else too? Why do you have a problem with this? It is in the Generral Discussion forum. Let James decide if this is inappropriate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chances are, if you ask several different sports bettors what percentage they pay their bookmakers you'll get several different answers, and, chances are, most of those answers will not be ringing with confident finality. Even battle-worn veterans who flatly answer "Four-and-a-half percent" are really operating with a false understanding of what's going on. Contrary to what many veteran gamblers believe, almost no one actually pays 4.55% in bookmakers' commissions.

 

Many bettors are also operating under the fallacy that losers pay vigorish. The fact is--as explained below--losing bettors actually play for free. Only winners pay vigorish...And it's not 4.55 percent.

 

The bookmaker's rather unique commission has no precise English definition, but the French word for it is "vignes." American gamblers have long since converted "vignes" to "vigorish," or to just plain "vig." Nevertheless, the bookmaker's fee is as much a commission as a broker's fee for handling a stock transaction or a Realtor's fee for handling a real estate deal. To account for this commission on standard pointspread wagers or over/under wagers, at traditional bookmakers for every $10 a bettor wants to win he is required to risk $11 - to "lay" $11. (Many internet bookmakers now charge less, allowing bettors to risk as little as 10.5 to win 10, but for our purposes here we will use '11-10' bets.) These 'eleven-ten' bets lead many gamblers to conclude that they are paying the bookmaker a commission of 10 percent if they lose a bet, but that they pay nothing if they win.

 

That's not correct. Here's how it actually works: Say two bettors each risk $110 with the same bookmaker on opposite sides of the same proposition, each bettor trying to win $100: The bookmaker receives a total of $220 from the two bettors. One bettor wins, one bettor loses, and the winner picks up a total of $210; - the $110 he put at risk, plus his $100 profit. That leaves the bookmaker with $10 gross profit as his vigorish on the deal. The bookmaker kept $10 of the $220 total amount risked.

 

That's a service charge of 4.55 percent. Had the two bettors each risked $110 against the other without using the services of the bookmaker, the winner would have walked away with $220 instead of $210. The bookmaker kept 4.55 percent of that $220. The amount risked by each bettor was $110; not 100 dollars.

 

($10 divided by $220 = .0455)

 

So the bookmaker does, indeed, charge 4.55 percent of the total amount put at risk by both bettors...But be sure to note which bettor paid both bettors' share of the vigorish. It was not the loser. The loser--since he lost the bet-- would have lost whatever he put at risk, with or without the services of the bookmaker. The winner paid. The winnings, which would have been $110 without using the services of the bookmaker, were shorted by ten dollars - 9.1 percent.

 

($10 divided by $110 = .090909091)

 

The winner got back only 191 percent of the amount he put at risk.

 

($110 x 1.90909091 = $210)

 

This is also the way it works in virtually all other casino games, such as craps, roulette, baccarrat, blackjack, and even slot machines. When a loser loses, he loses what he puts at risk, of course. In roulette, for example, someone betting on an 'even-money' proposition (red or black, high or low, odd or even) and losing, loses his bet, whatever he risked, period. But someone winning an 'even-money' roulette proposition does not get paid the 'fair' odds of 10-to-9. (There are 20 ways to lose an even-money bet at roulette and only 18 ways to win. The odds are 10-9 against you.) The winner only gets paid 1-to-1 odds. In all these table games, the winner pays the vigorish.

 

Of course, in a larger, more philosophical sense losers not only pay the vigorish but also the light bills of the casino and the salaries of the casino employees and all the other expenses of the casino. But we're not addressing philosophy here. We're addressing how the business of gambling actually works. This is no place to play with words and semantics. Vigorish is deducted from winnings.

 

It is important to understand this point. You can be sure most bettors don't. In effect, the bookmaker becomes a partner of the winning bettor. Understanding this point is important when figuring the real cost of various sports betting opportunities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tread lightly. Your threads keep making waves and are borderline inappropriate manner-wise.

 

You show up out of the blue and want to get combative. Seek life elsewhere if that is what you're here for. It doesn't fly around here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How dare you call me a clown! I resent that and demand an apology. I have been nothing but courteous and professional here.

 

Doesn't every new member come out of the blue? Is this a private country club or an open forum?

 

And who are you to tell me what to do here? If James has a problem with my posts, I'm sure he'll let me know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that clown comment was inappropiate. I have no problem with carcanaques' posts on money and risk management. They have been very interesting and can be related to trading.

 

This forum is welcome for all new members. Please keep it this way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to make a correction on the word Vigorish, it's actually from Yiddish slang.

 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.

 

Vigorish

 

SYLLABICATION: vig·o·rish

PRONUNCIATION: vgr-sh

NOUN: Slang 1a. A charge taken on bets, as by a bookie or gambling establishment. b. The rate or amount of such a charge. 2. Interest, especially excessive interest, paid to a moneylender.

ETYMOLOGY: Yiddish slang, from Russian vyigrysh, winnings : vy-, out; see ud- in Appendix I + igrat', to play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yea damn guys, chillout. this is really interesting stuff.

 

carcanaques, have to read this a few times to grasp it yet.I would be interested in hearing how you view money management as far as trading goes.

Have you ever read Secrets of Professional Turf Betting? Thats a book I've read alot about but have never payed up for the used price.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How dare you call me a clown! I resent that and demand an apology. I have been nothing but courteous and professional here.

 

Doesn't every new member come out of the blue? Is this a private country club or an open forum?

 

And who are you to tell me what to do here? If James has a problem with my posts, I'm sure he'll let me know.

 

You're not getting an apology. Deal with it. I don't say things I don't mean.

 

We'll see how it all pans out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're not getting an apology. Deal with it. I don't say things I don't mean.

We'll see how it all pans out.

Suite yourself. For the record, I offered a peace pipe to Reaver in a PM and it was rejected. Apparently, he thinks he owns the place. Oh well, that's between him and James.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
yea damn guys, chillout. this is really interesting stuff.

 

carcanaques, have to read this a few times to grasp it yet.I would be interested in hearing how you view money management as far as trading goes.

Have you ever read Secrets of Professional Turf Betting? Thats a book I've read alot about but have never payed up for the used price.

Never read that book as I stayed for away from horses.

 

As far as trading goes, my money management is garden variety. I won't risk more than 2% of my capital on any trade and no more than 4% per day, which is to say, if I have two stoputs in a row, I quit for the day and live to trade another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Things appear to be quite different to the UK (hence my comment in the other thread about betting being far from zero sum, well at least here).

 

Is this all legislated in th US (how much a bookie can charge and how they set odds)? Lets say your taking bets on a match where the outcome can only be A wins or B wins if you only get $1 on A and $100 on B you would offer odds of 100 to 1 (or maybe a bit less to make your 'vig') In the UK the bookies can set their rate without restriction (as far as I know). What if a bookie can't unload all their risk as bets get taken? They are now in a vulnerable position no longer being win win? Seems reasonable for them to get paid to take this risk.

 

A side question are most bets in the USA settled at 'starting prices' thats the case in the UK though a punter has the option of taking the current price which I guess gives bookies further headaches.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Things appear to be quite different to the UK (hence my comment in the other thread about betting being far from zero sum, well at least here).

 

Is this all legislated in th US (how much a bookie can charge and how they set odds)? Lets say your taking bets on a match where the outcome can only be A wins or B wins if you only get $1 on A and $100 on B you would offer odds of 100 to 1 (or maybe a bit less to make your 'vig') In the UK the bookies can set their rate without restriction (as far as I know). What if a bookie can't unload all their risk as bets get taken? They are now in a vulnerable position no longer being win win? Seems reasonable for them to get paid to take this risk.

 

A side question are most bets in the USA settled at 'starting prices' thats the case in the UK though a punter has the option of taking the current price which I guess gives bookies further headaches.

 

Cheers.

 

Bookmaking is illegal in the US except in jurisdictions where it is legal and operated by a licensed casino. Most of those outfits charge 11 to 10 on all bets that involve a pointspread; for example, football, basketball. Moneyline wagers (betting on the winner straightup) have set odds for payouts, much like the horses and the bookmakers cut is built in to those odds and payouts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh OK that's pretty different - things make more sense now. In the UK the bookmakers will take a bet on just about anything and I guess for some things just have to make up a price on the spot with little chance of finding a counter party. Snow at Xmas is a popular one. And every now and then you read about a wierd one in the papers.

 

How does betting on horses work in the US? Obviously no spread there? Horses are probably the most popular for sport betting in the UK. There are still bookies on most high streets. I guess if they use starting prices (final odds given at race start) its easier to set 'fair' prices to a prescribed (and legislated) formula.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ahh OK that's pretty different - things make more sense now. In the UK the bookmakers will take a bet on just about anything and I guess for some things just have to make up a price on the spot with little chance of finding a counter party. Snow at Xmas is a popular one. And every now and then you read about a wierd one in the papers.

 

How does betting on horses work in the US? Obviously no spread there? Horses are probably the most popular for sport betting in the UK. There are still bookies on most high streets. I guess if they use starting prices (final odds given at race start) its easier to set 'fair' prices to a prescribed (and legislated) formula.

 

Betting on horses here is done by Pari Mutuel wagering

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parimutuel_betting

 

Bookies, or the legal Off Track betting add a surcharge on top, on payouts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link. It just sounds as if things are more regulated in the USA. I may be mistaken about bookies being able to set there prices freely here of course. Pari Mutuel by definition uses starting prices I see.

 

Never been much of a gambler. I'll have a few quid on each race if I have a day at the races or might go to a casino for the odd night out but both of those are rare events, probably 500:1 against!

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm glad that I don't place bets. If I was a bookie then it would be a great business to get into however we all know that the book making industry is run by the mafia in whatever country you're in, and the only way to get a bookies license is to know people who know people.

 

The Melbroune Cup is going to be run pretty soon (Horse Race). The Bookmakers are going to make a killing. I heard that on average a bookie at the track turns over about $200k per hour, from which he will pay out a substantial amount to the winner, but they can and do leave the day with a lot of profit in their pocket from the vigorish that carcanaques describes.

 

Messy business lol.

 

P.S: I wanna retain all my fingers, toes, and other appendages that I find usefull so I don't wanna make any bets that I can't afford!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • also ... and barely on topic... Winners (always*) overpay. Buying the dips is a subscription to the belief that winners win by underpaying - when in actuality winners (inevitably/always*) win by overpaying... it’s amazing the percentage of traders who think winners win by underpaying ... “Winners (always*) overpay.” ...  One way to implement this ‘belief’ is to only reenter when prices have emphatically resumed the 'trend' .   (Fwiw, While “Winners (always*) overpay.” holds true in most endeavors (relationships, business, sports, etc...) - “Winners (always*) overpay.”  is especially true for auctions... continuous auctions included.)
    • re:  "Does it make sense to always buy the dips?  “Buy the dip.”  You hear this all the time in crypto investing trading speculation gambling. [zdo taking some liberties] It refers, of course, to buying more bitcoin (or digital assets) when they go down in price: when the price “dips.” Some people brag about “buying the dip," showing they know better than the crowd. Others “buy the dip” as an investment strategy: they’re getting a bargain. The problem is, buying the dip is a fallacy. You can’t buy the dip, because you can't see the total dip until much later. First, I’ll explain this in a way that will make it simple and obvious to you; then I’ll show you a better way of investing. You Only Know the Dip in Hindsight When people talk about “buying the dip,” what they’re really saying is, “I bought when the price was going down.” " ... example of a dip ... 
    • Date: 19th April 2024. Weekly Commodity Market Update: Oil Prices Correct and Supply Concerns Persist.   The ongoing developments in the Middle East sparked a wave of risk aversion and fueled supply concerns and investors headed for safety. Hopes for imminent rate cuts from the Federal Reserve diminish while attention is now turning towards the demand outlook. The Gold price hit a high of $2417.89 per ounce overnight. Sentiment has already calmed down again and bullion is trading at $2376.50 per ounce as haven flows ease. Oil prices initially moved higher as concern over escalating tensions with the WTI contract hit a session high of $85.508 per barrel overnight, before correcting to currently $81.45 per barrel. Oil Prices Under Pressure Amid Middle East Tensions Last week, commodity indexes showed little movement, with Oil prices undergoing a slight correction. Meanwhile, Gold reached yet another record high, mirroring the upward trend in cocoa prices. Once again today, USOil prices experienced a correction and has remained under pressure, retesting the 50-day EMA at $81.00 as we moving into the weekend. Hence, despite the Israel’s retaliatory strike on Iran, sentiments stabilized following reports suggesting a measured response aimed at avoiding further escalation. Brent crude futures witnessed a more than 4% leap, driven by concerns over potential disruptions to oil supplies in the Middle East, only to subsequently erase all gains. Similarly with USOIL, UKOIL hovers just below $87 per barrel, marginally below Thursday’s closing figures. Nevertheless, volatility is expected to continue in the market as several potential risks loom:   Disruption to the Strait of Hormuz: The possibility of Iran disrupting navigation through the vital shipping lane, is still in play. The Strait of Hormuz serves as the Persian Gulf’s primary route to international waters, with approximately 21 million barrels of oil passing through daily. Recent events, including Iran’s seizure of an Israel-linked container ship, underscore the geopolitical sensitivity of the region. Tougher Sanctions on Iran: Analysts speculate that the US may impose stricter sanctions on Iranian oil exports or intensify enforcement of existing restrictions. With global oil consumption reaching 102 million barrels per day, Iran’s production of 3.3 million barrels remains significant. Recent actions targeting Venezuelan oil highlight the potential for increased pressure on Iranian exports. OPEC Output Increases: Despite the desire for higher prices, OPEC members such as Saudi Arabia and Russia have constrained output in recent years. However, sustained crude prices above $100 per barrel could prompt concerns about demand and incentivize increased production. The OPEC may opt to boost oil output should tensions escalate further and prices surge. Ukraine Conflict: Amidst the focus on the Middle East, markets overlooking Russia’s actions in Ukraine. Potential retaliatory strikes by Kyiv on Russian oil infrastructure could impact exports, adding further complexity to global oil markets.   Technical Analysis USOIL is marking one of the steepest weekly declines witnessed this year after a brief period of consolidation. The breach below the pivotal support level of 84.00, coupled with the descent below the mid of the 4-month upchannel, signals a possible shift in market sentiment towards a bearish trend reversal. Adding to the bearish outlook are indications such as the downward slope in the RSI. However, the asset still hold above the 50-day EMA which coincides also with the mid of last year’s downleg, with key support zone at $80.00-$81.00. If it breaks this support zone, the focus may shift towards the 200-day EMA and 38.2% Fib. level at $77.60-$79.00. Conversely, a rejection of the $81 level and an upside potential could see the price returning back to $84.00. A break of the latter could trigger the attention back to the December’s resistance, situated around $86.60. A breakthrough above this level could ignite a stronger rally towards the $89.20-$90.00 zone. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Michalis Efthymiou Market Analyst HMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past perfrmance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 18th April 2024. Market News – Stock markets benefit from Dollar correction. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Technical buying, bargain hunting, and risk aversion helped Treasuries rally and unwind recent losses. Yields dropped from the recent 2024 highs. Asian stock markets strengthened, as the US Dollar corrected in the wake of comments from Japan’s currency chief Masato Kanda, who said G7 countries continue to stress that excessive swings and disorderly moves in the foreign exchange market were harmful for economies. US Stockpiles expanded to 10-month high. The data overshadowed the impact of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East as traders await Israel’s response to Iran’s unprecedented recent attack. President Joe Biden called for higher tariffs on imports of Chinese steel and aluminum.   Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex stumbled, falling to 105.66 at the end of the day from the intraday high of 106.48. It lost ground against most of its G10 peers. There wasn’t much on the calendar to provide new direction. USDJPY lows retesting the 154 bottom! NOT an intervention yet. BoJ/MoF USDJPY intervention happens when there is more than 100+ pip move in seconds, not 50 pips. USOIL slumped by 3% near $82, as US crude inventories rose by 2.7 million barrels last week, hitting the highest level since last June, while gauges of fuel demand declined. Gold strengthened as the dollar weakened and bullion is trading at $2378.44 per ounce. Market Trends:   Wall Street closed in the red after opening with small corrective gains. The NASDAQ underperformed, slumping -1.15%, with the S&P500 -0.58% lower, while the Dow lost -0.12. The Nikkei closed 0.2% higher, the Hang Seng gained more than 1. European and US futures are finding buyers. A gauge of global chip stocks and AI bellwether Nvidia Corp. have both fallen into a technical correction. The TMSC reported its first profit rise in a year, after strong AI demand revived growth at the world’s biggest contract chipmaker. The main chipmaker to Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. recorded a 9% rise in net income, beating estimates. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.