[brownsfan019]

I have found that new traders to the ES sometimes don't understand one really important characteristic of this market, esp. when compared to the YM, NQ or ER2 - and that is more often than not, price must TRADE THROUGH the level you are looking to get a fill to assume you will get filled. This concept is incredibly important, esp. to backtesters, that new people to the ES do not always grasp right away.

In other words, whether backtesting or trading on a simulator, always assume that price must TRADE THROUGH the level you want to enter/exit to get a fill.

Example: say you want to short with a limit order at 1275.50. More often than not, to get that fill, price will have to touch 1275.75. There are times where you might get filled / partial fill depending on where in line you are, but I've found that many new traders to the ES (and not necessarily new to trading) have a hard time w/ this when coming from the YM, NQ or ER2.

The reason is simply the volume that is traded on the ES is much thicker than the other markets so it is harder to get a limit fill if it does not trade through.

I mention this today b/c I've literally had 3 trades today TOUCH my profit target, not fill and then retrace back. Frustrating to say the least, but hopefully my frustration will help someone here.

My suggestion to those on a simulator is to put your profit target(s) one tick out from where you really want to exit and same with backtesters. Whenever I switch over to the OEC demo and set a profit target, I have my targets set at 1 tick greater than what I would be doing in real-time so that I get a real-time type fill.

THERE IS NO POINT IN FOOLING YOURSELF OR PLAYING GAMES WITH YOUR MIND.
NEVER ASSUME YOU GOT A FILL ON THE ES IF IT DID NOT TRADE THROUGH.

Does your platform of choice (OEC) support Market if Touched orders on Globex? Maybe that might help out, if you don't mind losing a tick.

To quote John Carter from Trade the Markets, "Don't be a dick for a tick!"

[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by forsearch »

Does your platform of choice (OEC) support Market if Touched orders on Globex? Maybe that might help out, if you don't mind losing a tick.

To quote John Carter from Trade the Markets, "Don't be a dick for a tick!"

Yes, OEC has MIT orders however I am not using them in my current profit targets. Just one of those days where one more tick down and 3 trades turn into +6 vs. +3 ticks. Just part of the game, I am used to it by now.

[brownsfan019]

And actually fs that brings up another topic but we'll discuss briefly here... if you find a profit target(s) that works for you, it's inevitable that a day here and there will test your faith in that setup.

Currently I am just popping trades for +2 and out. Today that equates to SIX ES POINTS 'LEFT ON THE TABLE'. Most might start to panic or just say - let's take 1.75 or 1.5 going forward.

For me, I know more often than not, that +2 is very achievable. Today is a day where that faith in my +2 is being tested. And this does happen from time-to-time. So easy to say take 1 tick less on all these trades, but if I were to go back and run the #'s, I KNOW that would take THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS from my account. Yes, today was a testing day. No doubt.

IMO if you let the market shake your faith that easily b/c of 1 day, you'll constantly be chasing yesterday's results.

Yes, and the corollary is that if your stops aren't managed well, you'll also bleed your account to an early demise.

If you use a -4 stop, instead of a -2 stop, then you'd probably have to work twice as hard to make up ground if a trade goes against you.

Likewise, if your setup doesn't allow for the occasional runner, then you might not be able to maximize your gains on trending days.

[Hlm]

Ah yes, the touch but no fill game. The best thing is when the market touches your target...pulls back...you take profit several ticks lower thinking you missed your target...and no more than a few seconds after you exit the market runs past your target. I always enjoy those and get a good laugh. Hey, if you can't have fun with what you're doing then maybe you are in the wrong business.

Create a statistically sound plan and stick to it.

[brownsfan019]

Originally Posted by forsearch »

Yes, and the corollary is that if your stops aren't managed well, you'll also bleed your account to an early demise.

If you use a -4 stop, instead of a -2 stop, then you'd probably have to work twice as hard to make up ground if a trade goes against you.

Likewise, if your setup doesn't allow for the occasional runner, then you might not be able to maximize your gains on trending days.

Stops are the other part of the equation.

I'm not interested in trying to catch the trending day move when we know how little the market actually trends. I think that is a big myth that few can actually make money at. If the market trends maybe 1 day a week (if that), I'm not interested in trying to catch that one move once a week. Today is a great example - setting new highs currently yet we had a push up, then down and now back up... If one is to try to catch the 'move' I wonder how many could hold their longs through that nice downmove and/or how many shorts are still holding short assuming the downmove is coming back?

My point is that while it sounds great to say catch the occasional trend day but 1) it happens so few times and 2) you still have to be on the right side of it.

For my personal trading, I have run the #'s over and over and over again and while it's fun to catch that 10+ pt move, it just doesn't happen that often to make it worth my time or effort. For the 1 time you do catch that monster move, there are 10+ times that it doesn't happen.

So while I may not make as much on the few trending days as others, I'm more than happy to make consistent profits most days by taking reliable setups with achievable profit targets.

[OAC]

Originally Posted by brownsfan019 »

The reason is simply the volume that is traded on the ES is much thicker than the other markets so it is harder to get a limit fill if it does not trade through.

I buy at the bid and sell on the offer on ES all the time. You must know your support/resistence and be prepared to enter the limit order early because I believe they are filled on FIFO(first in first out) basis. The only time where it is hard to sell on the offer is when the market is reaching a buying exhaustion.Then you have to watch T&S carefully and be ready to cancel and hit the bid when both the buying momentum stalls and the bid level start to thin out. I rarely have problem selling on the offer on the first impulse wave up.(Selling to people who don't want to miss the boat)