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Technical Analysis Thread, Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method in The Technical Laboratory; Recently i've made somewhat of a paradigm shift in how I trade (and simplified things about 10x's over) but I ...
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Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #1  
Old 04-26-2009, 12:11 PM
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Recently i've made somewhat of a paradigm shift in how I trade (and simplified things about 10x's over) but I wanted to share a small observation I have made concerning "trending" markets and ADX readings and how i'm trading. This example is on the Forex markets (as I made the original post for a FX site, but I use this to trade the e-mini's on a 1-5min and tick charts these days)

First off, let me preface this by saying if you are a pure trend trader looking for MA cross overs or something into a bigger trend then this might not help you. For the rest of us going short and long based off S/R, trendlines, or Fibs then this will be relevant to you!

Ok, so we are all told from various software vendors, trading forums, trading websites, educational vendors that the GOOD trades are in trending environments correct? We are told to wait for the ADX to be > 20 to take a trade? Because then we know the market is trending right? I'm here to argue that this SIMPLY IS NOT TRUE. In fact - its the opposite.

I argue that the prime time to look for entries is in fact when the ADX < 20 and by definition the market is NOT in a trend. Think about it like this: If you are getting into a move when the ADX > 20 you are by definition jumping into a position after price has ALREADY MOVED A GOOD DISTANCE IN ONE DIRECTION. Thus, its probability of that trend stopping and a reversion to its mathematical mean is much much more likely which means a move against you is much much more likely as well.

Now on the other hand, by getting into a trade when the ADX < 20 we are saying that we want to be in the move BEFORE ITS OCCURS and let us make profit while the ADX is increasing and the TREND is increasing.

Here are some examples from Friday on the EURUSD 1 minute chart. The indicator on the chart shows nothing other than a GREEN BAR if the ADX < 20 and a RED BAR if the ADX > 20. i.e. we only are looking for positions when there are green bars.

First thing to note - IF you trade like this it will be some of the easiest most carefree trading you've ever done. Why? Because ADX filters 70-90% of the price action on most days. And you sit and wait without a care in the world. I have the indicator set up to alert me when the ADX drops below 20 so I get a message saying pay attention and then we look for trades. This will DRASTICALLY reduce trade amounts, increase efficiency, reduce commissions, and eliminate the possibility of overtrading a market. Lets face it folks - most of us aren't good enough to be 100% on every swing 100% of the day. It gets us into trouble and we all know it. So why fight it? Especially if you can filter 70-90% of the day and only focus on tiny points on the chart where the probability for a trend developing is in your favor?

I apologize for the size of these charts but nothing peeve's me more than someone posting a chart example thats too small to see. You should have no issues here.

These examples will be nothing more than trendline breaks snapped to a Pivot High/Low reading on the charts. Entries on breaks of the trendlines with the ADX < 20. NOTHING ELSE. You decide the management and targets but it would be pretty hard to lose money here.



You are jumping in at the momentum shift BEFORE THE TREND OCCURS.

Now take a look at the entries where the ADX > 20 and the pundits would like to tell us its a GREAT TIME TO LOOK FOR TRADES. Almost everything loses.



Coincidence? That's for you to decide. I don't think it is coincidence. In fact this is exactly how I trade from here. ADX and trendlines. Call it a day and make money. Only we can complicate the hell out of it "looking for the trend". The truth is the trend is relative, and thus WE DEFINE IT. And if that's the case, everyone else has a difference definition and no one can be right or wrong. So why bother? Swing your middle finger up at the "trend" and forget about chasing it. Its a fruitless effort and a lie, and one that hasn't made too many of us rich.

Think its a fluke? Go look at it yourself.

ADX and trendlines. The only tools you need to make yourself rich.

Cheers!
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #2  
Old 04-27-2009, 10:29 AM
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Easy trading so far today...

I got out early at the profit target my management rules said to but you can see... easy, and effective.



I'll post more trades from today and we progress! Happy Trading!
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #3  
Old 04-27-2009, 11:36 AM
waveslider
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I think ADX is better as an exit tool, though I don't use it...
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

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Old 04-28-2009, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by daedalus View Post
.....
Ok, so we are all told from various software vendors, trading forums, trading websites, educational vendors that the GOOD trades are in trending environments correct? We are told to wait for the ADX to be > 20 to take a trade? Because then we know the market is trending right? .....
....... Think about it like this: If you are getting into a move when the ADX > 20 you are by definition jumping into a position after price has ALREADY MOVED A GOOD DISTANCE IN ONE DIRECTION. Thus, its probability of that trend stopping and a reversion to its mathematical mean is much much more likely which means a move against you is much much more likely as well.

Now on the other hand, by getting into a trade when the ADX < 20 we are saying that we want to be in the move BEFORE ITS OCCURS and let us make profit while the ADX is increasing and the TREND is increasing.

Here are some examples from Friday on the EURUSD 1 minute chart. .......
Hi Daedalus,
I have no wish to offend you. perhaps you have more experience than me, but if I assume that you are not tyring to deliberately mislead people, I can only conclude that you do not understand either the ADX or what your strategy is based upon.

You have a point about the ADX getting you in late when a trend changes,
but you didn't wait for a trend change confirmation from the ADX on your chart. All your exampels of failing trades when the ADX is > 20 are counter-trend trades. Thus it should be obvious that the stonger the trend, the less likely they are to work out - so they give better results if the ADX is <20 when they are taken.
I did not see any examples of you using the ADX to get in with the trend (e.g. on the break of a bull/bear flag or a pullback).

Unless you know that you are doing it, and know the risks involved, it is deadly to one's account to trade an indicator in a way that goes against the theory behind the indicator.

I am not an expert, but I have learnt not to do that.

Ian
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #5  
Old 04-28-2009, 10:26 AM
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The method outlined is a breakout method. I understand that the moves were counter trend which is why they failed. The point of it was that lots of people try and use trendlines and can never seem to figure out why some patterns that are advancing H, HH can snap and make a profitable trade, and others that appear to reverse in their face.

I just wanted to show an easy way to qualify trendline trades, nothing more!

Cheers!
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #6  
Old 05-06-2009, 08:22 PM
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Hi daedalus:

I understand your thinking on this, having chased ADX trades. It really is crucial to get in early. Your ADX-Mod idea seems to me to have merit. I would add that a Bollinger Band-Keltner squeeze can confirm your theory. Thanks for your insight. The "ADX Modified" seems easy enough to code, even I could do it. It's the first time that I've heard this idea.
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

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Old 05-07-2009, 01:26 AM
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I also believe this method has merit. Many of the trades will be out of consolidations, allowing a small stop loss and greater risk/reward potential. I've heard some traders look for trades within consolidations or when ADX drops to a very low # for this very reason. The tricky part of course being not knowing in advance which way price will break out of consolidation. The trendline break entry you show appears to let price action confirm the direction out of consolidation.

snowbird
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #8  
Old 05-07-2009, 10:21 AM
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Thanks for the kind comments folks. I trade the e-mini's and just wanted to share with you the four trades i've taken over the past two days in the ES (including this last trade about 10 minutes ago).

Today:


Yesterday:


My results were as follows: Par, +87.50, +125.00, +112.50. The first trade went +2 in favor but my target was slightly higher at +2.5. I don't know how you all want to manage them, etc...

But I wil say this for the few things I've found to help me out.

1. I use a Keltner channel to skip trades that "break trendlines" but area already up or down at a band. Keeps me from getting in too late and catching trades that are going to retrace or reverse without giving me a chance to get to par.

2. The highest probability trades are the wedge setups (ie like the trade from today, H, HH, HL, LH, failure for entry. If the trade is an advancing setup, where you are taking a trendline break of a swing that is going H, HH, LH, HH, failure for entry the odds are less in your favor. I would recommend looking for some kind of divergence to further filter these entries.

The end result is much less trades. But you know what? I'm perfectly fine with only taking 1 - 4 good trades a day and leaving it at that. Keeps my commissions low and my trade efficiency high.

Since I've switched to this method over the past weeks while i've still been tweaking the method (adding keltner rules, and wedge vs. advancing attributes) i've traded basically like crap and am still making consistent money.

Just keep things simple and you'll do just fine!
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #9  
Old 05-07-2009, 01:53 PM
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put a 50+ MA on it...
when the ADX breaks, it will most likely break in the direction of a medium term MA.


may I recommend this MA with extension:
http://www.traderslaboratory.com/for...sion-5642.html

Last edited by Tams; 05-07-2009 at 02:04 PM.
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Re: Why ADX > 20 Is a Lie + Easy Trading Method  

  #10  
Old 05-07-2009, 02:51 PM
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50 MA should definately help.... and also keep you out of some bad trades (pass on signals or be very carefull if the 50 MA is flat/directionless)

snowbird
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