Time for the lurkers to go

[brownsfan019]

As some of us have seen over at elitetrader, there's a few out there that love to 'lurk' here and then use our posts as reasons to start threads/posts about us. And to be honest, I am tired of it.

There's a handful of us here that really care and try to provide quality content and provide a community not found elsewhere. And as TL has grown, so to has the desire for vendors that want to prey on newbies to post here or elsewhere simply for the sake of trying to drum up business. Of course, those of us that trade for a living understand that if you could actually trade, the last thing you would do is spam forums with some 'educational' product. And it's to the point now, where James (founder of TL) is being called into question as well. To me, that's just not right. James has created something not found elsewhere and I think it's time to protect that.

The bottom line is that I think it's time for the lurking at TL to end. I understand that there's some out there that just lurk and keep to themselves, but to be honest, what value is that providing to anyone else? In order for the community to continue, there needs to be a constant sharing of knowledge and ideas. And the fact is, lurkers contribute nothing to that.

I don't know what the exact solution is to eliminate this lurking as we all know it's easy to create a screen name. At one point we had a premium area or something like that. Well, it may be time to revisit that James and implement something that encompasses more of the forum.

In the end, please understand that my view here is simple - first, for James to be attacked is completely unprofessional and shows what type of person(s) lurk here - those that hunt for anything to use against James or members here for the sake of spamming their product... Believe it or not, there are person(s) that will stoop to that level to try to promote their product. Second, for those of us that contribute some substance here, I'm not concerned if lurkers can read it or not. If you are not going to provide something to the forum, then why should we provide you anything? Sorry if that's too blunt, but it is what it is.

James, I know you may not want this here, but I would ask for you to see where this discussion goes. As I said, when you were called out a number of times after all you've done here, I thought to myself that enough is enough. There's no reason for some vendor to try to paint a picture of you as a liar and manipulator. There's no reason for a vendor to attack myself, Reaver or others simply b/c we have posted here and tried to provide some real content. Whether we like or not, the fact is that there are person(s) out there that literally have nothing better to do with their time than spam forums by any means necessary. If nothing else, I think we all would agree that James has provided a community here found nowhere else. For him to be attacked is not necessary and CAN BE mitigated going forward. It may not eliminate it, but we CAN do something to reduce it.

I'd love to hear what others think. Maybe I am totally off here and if so, that's fine too. Maybe others are not even aware of the personal attacks against James, Reaver and myself have taken place. Maybe you are not aware that the VSA thread has also been attacked as well.

In the end, I see no value provided by allowing people to lurk here. If lurking is simply going to give those pathetic spammers reasons to attack us for sake of spamming their terrible products, I am not interested in providing the fuel they need to spam their product. The bottom line is that spammers need something - anything - to spam their product, including attacking people. It is childish and absurd, but as I said, some vendors are really that pathetic and have to resort to any means necessary to spam their products.

If nothing else, I wanted to apologize to James that he had to waste his time defending the forum he has built and I want members here to know how low vendors will go. For me, I say let's end it as much as possible.

[Reaver]

It is sad that everything had to come to this. The line was totally crossed when "they" started trying to bash James in public over at ET. I'm a big boy and can handle it myself, and I admit I stirred plenty of it up over at ET...but that is away from home (TL). When I first signed up here, I may be wrong, but I do believe you had to be fully registered to even view the pages here...Of course, like Brownsfan said, that won't totally prevent spammers etc..but then again, locking your car doors won't totally prevent thieves from breaking in....but it helps.

James has put an enormous amount of effort, and God knows how much of his own money into this forum, and the result has been a stellar site with more camaraderie and quality content about trading than anyone has anywhere. I defy you to find anything better out there. Being a trader is a lonely road, especially if you are self-directed....you don't really have anyone else to discuss trading with or bounce ideas against....

Trader's Lab allows facilitates unsurpassed quality interaction of its members.

This forum has integrity and that is worth its weight in gold.

How to keep it that way?

I have no idea how much it costs to run a forum, but I am willing to bet it is quite expensive, especially as it grows. There is no telling how much money James has put into this site out of his own pocket. The main purpose of the sponsors, etc is to generate revenue to keep the forums running. Maybe James makes a couple bucks here and there, but I think James makes his money trading and the revenue from this site goes into operating costs, assuming that costs don't exceed the income. Therefore revenue is necessary, as I wouldn't expect James to keep footing the bill for this because we have become picky about the advertisements.

The problem is, however, that we ARE in fact picky about any unscrupulous advertisements and spammers as these are detrimental to the integrity and quality of the forums.

Dr Janice is an example of a great sponsor. She generously donates her articles to the forums and doesn't engage in any self-aggrandizement or underhanded techniques. She is an example of a vendor that I have utmost respect for. It is truly hard to have honor in such a business field as trading, considering most of the competition will stoop to any level to get business.

So Dr Janice, I salute you for your efforts. Trader's Lab greatly benefits from your presence here.

The problem begins with those who aren't so honorable....this is what needs to be rooted out.

If James restricts membership, it will make advertising potentially less lucrative for the sponsors here. Therefore he may be in jeopardy of losing vital revenue from sponsors.

There is x amount of revenue that the forum must generate to maintain operating costs, and make it worth James' while to maintain this great forum.

This is where we may be called to come in. I am not sure how much it would cost per capita to make ends meet around here, but I think it would remain a reasonable amount to pay for a membership here. I of course, like any trader, want to buy low and all..(lol) but sometimes you can't get by on the cheap stuff. I would gladly pay double or even triple the going rate for premium membership if it would eradicate those that would destroy this forum and take advantage of its members. I can't speak for anyone else but that is my opinion in the matter.

There are parasites tunneling all through the forum....and we have to burn 'em out.


*If this post is out of line, please delete, I do not want to cause trouble. This post comes with the best of intentions.*

[brownsfan019]

Good points Reaver. There's a fine line between operating a forum and making money at it b/c the two are in direct conflict at times. We've discussed this many months (maybe years) ago when TL first got going. At that time the concern was not that big since TL was still growing. Well, the time has come where vendors selling stuff want into TL and will do whatever it takes to get in.

[TinGull]

If it were me, and it's not...but if it were...I'd only allow Premium Traders who pay for this service to be able to access the information here. Either that...or have the premium members actually use the premium forum for posting their content. If the premium trader accounts were to post there instead of in the "open" then that would prevent lots of unwanted perusing of posts by folks who can try and use that to one's disadvantage. (did that make sense?)

Reason? Spammers won't want to pay to become a premium member just to dig dirt and post somewhere else about it. If they do...then they're REALLLLLLLLLLLLY dumb to waste their money on that.

That's my thought on it. I think it would be something really worth doing for the premium members of this fabulous site.

oh..someones posting crap about my VSA thread??? *puts on boxing gloves* show me.

[Soultrader]

Hello Brownsfan, Reaver, and Tingull,

Thank you very much for posting this thread. The incident over at ET was certainly inappropiate and highly unprofessional. To be honest, I am quite disapointed this has happened but not too concerned as the person who made these inappropiate comments is only ruining his own reputation and whoever he represents. In my views, he simply blew up his own grenade.

Regarding lurkers, I do not want to limit or restrict this forum to members who only contribute. I am extremely thankful for all the contributing members. However, there are numerous members here that are still relatively new to trading and are learning as they read. When the time comes, those who have absorbed the educational material here can contribute as they gain enough insights and knowledge on their own. It would do no good to restrict content from members with zero posts who are here to really learn.

Regarding the spammers and posters that provide negativity, the best we can do is to ban them immediately and have a zero-tolerance policy towards such posts. The integrity of the forum is created by the respect of members towards other members. I believe this is what makes this forum extremely special and have attracted a great group of traders that can openly share, dicuss and learn from each other.

There will always be the few that try to ruin such community. This is expected. I believe myself and the great team of moderators here can preserve the integrity of this forum by taking appropiate actions.

In order to prevent spammers, our system has a new thread/post approval system in place. All first time posters are placed in que on new posts and threads that contain links. We have eliminated many spams through this system.

Every now and then, I also do a run through on all new members in order to see if anyone is registered using a common spam mail domain or spam-like username. When found, they are banned.

The premium forum is open for premium members. I initially created for the purpose of creating a 100% clean section on the forums. Perhaps I will work on ways to get this arena more active.

The balance between integriy and allowing vendors is a very difficult topic. Please note that Dr. Janice is not a sponsor but a partner of the site. I have invited her to add value to the site from an educational perspective by allowing her own section on the forums.

The costs of running this board is not significant. However, expenses increase with more registered members and registration rates have doubled the past 2 months. Almost 90% of all revenue from the site is dumped back into the site. I am willing to operate the site freely as long as expenses are not coming out of my own personal income (from prop trading).

Many members have asked me why I would put in the time to run such a site for free? Very simple. I absolutely enjoy it and learn a great deal from reading through various posts. I have learned a great deal just through sharing through feedbacks, comments, etc... My goal is to create a top class environment for traders but at the same time becoming the best trader I can be. This community has been the perfect environment in doing so.

In terms of future plans, I have been thinking of one option. To make this forum entirely by subcription like Tingull mentioned above. However, this is extremely risky in terms of attracting members and from a business model perspective. This is an idea I may want to implement in the future when the member base crosses over 20,000 - 30,000. I think with the current member base, it is small enough to diffuse alot of problems on the spot. (if you think subscription based will work with such a small memberbase, please post your thoughts)

New concerns and issues may arise as the community becomes larger. However, I do not want to limit the forum for specific groups of members. I want this place to be an open place forum that welcomes anyone.

I am open to ideas and suggestions and welcome the help. Please feel free to address your thoughts. I have been running this site alone and with the help of great moderators on the board so will do my best to listen to member comments. Thanks.

[Reaver]

	Quote:	Soultrader
	Hello Brownsfan, Reaver, and Tingull, Thank you very much for posting this thread. The incident over at ET was certainly inappropiate and highly unprofessional. To be honest, I am quite disapointed this has happened but not too concerned as the person who made these inappropiate comments is only ruining his own reputation and whoever he represents. In my views, he simply blew up his own grenade. Regarding lurkers, I do not want to limit or restrict this forum to members who only contribute. I am extremely thankful for all the contributing members. However, there are numerous members here that are still relatively new to trading and are learning as they read. When the time comes, those who have absorbed the educational material here can contribute as they gain enough insights and knowledge on their own. It would do no good to restrict content from members with zero posts who are here to really learn. Regarding the spammers and posters that provide negativity, the best we can do is to ban them immediately and have a zero-tolerance policy towards such posts. The integrity of the forum is created by the respect of members towards other members. I believe this is what makes this forum extremely special and have attracted a great group of traders that can openly share, dicuss and learn from each other. There will always be the few that try to ruin such community. This is expected. I believe myself and the great team of moderators here can preserve the integrity of this forum by taking appropiate actions. In order to prevent spammers, our system has a new thread/post approval system in place. All first time posters are placed in que on new posts and threads that contain links. We have eliminated many spams through this system. Every now and then, I also do a run through on all new members in order to see if anyone is registered using a common spam mail domain or spam-like username. When found, they are banned. The premium forum is open for premium members. I initially created for the purpose of creating a 100% clean section on the forums. Perhaps I will work on ways to get this arena more active. The balance between integriy and allowing vendors is a very difficult topic. Please note that Dr. Janice is not a sponsor but a partner of the site. I have invited her to add value to the site from an educational perspective by allowing her own section on the forums. The costs of running this board is not significant. However, expenses increase with more registered members and registration rates have doubled the past 2 months. Almost 90% of all revenue from the site is dumped back into the site. I am willing to operate the site freely as long as expenses are not coming out of my own personal income (from prop trading). Many members have asked me why I would put in the time to run such a site for free? Very simple. I absolutely enjoy it and learn a great deal from reading through various posts. I have learned a great deal just through sharing through feedbacks, comments, etc... My goal is to create a top class environment for traders but at the same time becoming the best trader I can be. This community has been the perfect environment in doing so. In terms of future plans, I have been thinking of one option. To make this forum entirely by subcription like Tingull mentioned above. However, this is extremely risky in terms of attracting members and from a business model perspective. This is an idea I may want to implement in the future when the member base crosses over 20,000 - 30,000. I think with the current member base, it is small enough to diffuse alot of problems on the spot. (if you think subscription based will work with such a small memberbase, please post your thoughts) New concerns and issues may arise as the community becomes larger. However, I do not want to limit the forum for specific groups of members. I want this place to be an open place forum that welcomes anyone. I am open to ideas and suggestions and welcome the help. Please feel free to address your thoughts. I have been running this site alone and with the help of great moderators on the board so will do my best to listen to member comments. Thanks.

James I totally see your point in what you are saying about not restricting membership. Thinking solely about keeping the losers and oxygen thieves off the board caused me to overlook that every important detail. I know a few pretty new members have really stepped up and added a lot of content to the forums, so I agree with you that going for a restriction to the degree we were referring to may turn away otherwise good members to the forum.

I think that the ideas you mentioned sound like a very good start. Sounds like they could make a significant difference in the amount of BS here.

It would be a shame to shut out potential great members here just to prevent spammers and instigators from doing their thing. I think your idea is an excellent start.

[TinGull]

One thing, too...is to try and separate out ET from TL for a minute...if ET didn't exist would we be having this discussion? TL stands on it's own and really hasn't been "infiltrated" (for lack of a better word) by those lousy guys.

When I started really thinking about it...I thought, why not just leave well enough alone at ET and just focus on the content and relationships here at TL? The biggest reason I stopped watching and posting at ET a year ago was because this site provided me with so much more than ET could ever give (besides a heart attack from reading stupid posts). My vote is to just leave well enough alone here, the mods will keep doing what we do and those guys can post whatever they want on ET. I wouldn't give them the time of day by responding to them, and I like what James did over there...one post is enough. To me, to have 50 pages of nonsense is overdoing things.

[walterw]

Those poor begars post all that BS because they dont trade (have a lot of time)... I need a 30 hour day to test my new vma`s no time for BS...

I agree with Tin, lets keep our environment clean and let the poor jelous begars waste their time in BS... my two cents... cheers The Chimp.

[Reaver]

	Quote:	TinGull
	One thing, too...is to try and separate out ET from TL for a minute...if ET didn't exist would we be having this discussion? TL stands on it's own and really hasn't been "infiltrated" (for lack of a better word) by those lousy guys. When I started really thinking about it...I thought, why not just leave well enough alone at ET and just focus on the content and relationships here at TL? The biggest reason I stopped watching and posting at ET a year ago was because this site provided me with so much more than ET could ever give (besides a heart attack from reading stupid posts). My vote is to just leave well enough alone here, the mods will keep doing what we do and those guys can post whatever they want on ET. I wouldn't give them the time of day by responding to them, and I like what James did over there...one post is enough. To me, to have 50 pages of nonsense is overdoing things.

Oh man yeah but those spammers talking crap about us at ET are like the forbidden fruit or something. LOL

But I agree...sometimes the truth hurts.

I will try to wean myself from it all.

[Sparrow]

I actually like the idea of a premium area, spending a little money shows how serious one is about trading and contributes some cash to the board.

IMO growing communities always face such a problem sooner or later, if i look at ET i am sure there is a lot of superb material there, but finding it becomes very time consuming.

Newbie traders(like myself) have a lot to learn before they can contribute in any meaningful way. Some veteran traders are getting tired of having to answer basic questions over and over again, depends on the nature of the person, others just love to help. Even if lurkers don't contribute, remember just a few of them will make it.

A drawback of such a premium area would be to attract new members, but if it is worth it, it could work. And in real life the elite doesn't mind to shell out a few bucks to keep among themselves.