[Kiwi]

You really waste your time casting pearls before swine Thales.

Some will never get it and all we can hope is that they actually do put some money into the market from time to time.

[SIUYA]

I would have thought 'rate of return' from investments is more a relative term related to 'efficiency of the money spent' and helps determine where to 1) spend the money in terms of a companies expenses, or 2) where to invest the money for the greatest rate of return.
If you are speculating the rate of return is a crappy marketing term used to suck in people.

I used to work on an options floor and when you had a good trade/day the joke was always "annualise that".
Speculating does not equal gambling does not equal investing. The terms applicable to each while many use interchangeably have different definitions and hence different conclusions.

This is an interesting thread as it incorporates a lot - beliefs, ideas, commitment to these - as well as definitions forming and/or resulting from those beliefs. As well as how the physc affects this. Its one of those things that I feel every one is correct in their own ways - but arguing two different points by trying to apply the same definitions to different things....and unfortunately is devolving into name calling. (while fun, is not necessary).
(I would happily take 15% annualized return on the bulk of my investments (this also is probably not achieved by 95% of investors), while I would also be happy to speculate wildly on a smaller percentage.)

Nothing is impossible, however improbable.

[thalestrader]

Originally Posted by JohnnySDG »

Thalestrader, your post illuminates your BS.

IF you are the "great trader" why do you still have a business?...

Folks of intelligence and experience would argue that your post fully illuminates the degree of your self-imposed ignorance concerning business and trading. It also shows that you are unwilling and thus currently incapable of moving beyond your current (lack of) understanding.

Thales

[JohnnySDG]

Originally Posted by SIUYA »

I would have thought 'rate of return' from investments is more a relative term related to 'efficiency of the money spent' and helps determine where to 1) spend the money in terms of a companies expenses, or 2) where to invest the money for the greatest rate of return.
If you are speculating the rate of return is a crappy marketing term used to suck in people.

I used to work on an options floor and when you had a good trade/day the joke was always "annualise that".
Speculating does not equal gambling does not equal investing. The terms applicable to each while many use interchangeably have different definitions and hence different conclusions.

This is an interesting thread as it incorporates a lot - beliefs, ideas, commitment to these - as well as definitions forming and/or resulting from those beliefs. As well as how the physc affects this. Its one of those things that I feel every one is correct in their own ways - but arguing two different points by trying to apply the same definitions to different things....and unfortunately is devolving into name calling. (while fun, is not necessary).
(I would happily take 15% annualized return on the bulk of my investments (this also is probably not achieved by 95% of investors), while I would also be happy to speculate wildly on a smaller percentage.)

Nothing is impossible, however improbable.

Siuya, as an options trader I agree with you 100% about some of those option tradesI . In any business those well above average profits (in any business) are called windfalls. I agree with you about speculating for superior returns in certain situations. In a previous post I discussed my ford purchase.

I agree that speculation is good on a smaller percentage of assets. My argument is that it is a foolish move when it is the sole trading plan.

Johnny

[HighStakes]

I will read that book, thalestrader. Great post.

If my prospect of annualized returns were merely 10-15%, I would never waste any time on trading. I`d rather work the extra hours with my current job and invest my savings in an index or similar.

If anyone is interested, I may upload an excel sheet I made with montecarlo simulations of a trading profile. Commissions, break even trades, win percentage, average winner, number of contracts as a function of margin, expectancy, etc. Every variable (within reason) is included.

It`s fun to play around with the variables and see what`s possible, how it`s possible, etc.

[MadMarketScientist]

This is a great thread with really a tremendous debate going back and forth. It's quite valuable what each of you say -- many could learn quite a bit just from reading this thread.

However, please let's not get personal with the attacks. I see some of the emotions and attacks creeping in here -- keep it on point, argue strong but let's try to keep it friendly.

Thanks guys/gals!

[JohnnySDG]

Originally Posted by HighStakes »

I will read that book, thalestrader. Great post.

If my prospect of annualized returns were merely 10-15%, I would never waste any time on trading. I`d rather work the extra hours with my current job and invest my savings in an index or similar.

If anyone is interested, I may upload an excel sheet I made with montecarlo simulations of a trading profile. Commissions, break even trades, win percentage, average winner, number of contracts as a function of margin, expectancy, etc. Every variable (within reason) is included.

It`s fun to play around with the variables and see what`s possible, how it`s possible, etc.

Yes, a spreadsheet! It will show you how to turn $1 into $1,000,000,000,000,000,00 0

Then you can do an infomercial!

[MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by HighStakes »

I will read that book, thalestrader. Great post.

If my prospect of annualized returns were merely 10-15%, I would never waste any time on trading. I`d rather work the extra hours with my current job and invest my savings in an index or similar.

If anyone is interested, I may upload an excel sheet I made with montecarlo simulations of a trading profile. Commissions, break even trades, win percentage, average winner, number of contracts as a function of margin, expectancy, etc. Every variable (within reason) is included.

It`s fun to play around with the variables and see what`s possible, how it`s possible, etc.

The prospects are very high that a trader will lose money (not you personally). So if 15% isn't exciting in average market conditions, then its a good decision to stay away from the start.

I tremendously encourage anyone taking advice from a trader who performs at a triple digit level to seek validation of the results before you you drink from the dipper. If they are willing to say they make xxx%, they should be willing to show it too. Otherwise, its likely smoke and mirrors.