[Jumper]

This sort of stuff interests me very much. For me, the fact that not many people really know how to do it inspires me even more to learn it, even if it takes months to do it all myself, I believe there is something in this. Pretty much all of the best traders I know do this one way or another, reading order flow, they all keep a very close eye on the DOM. I think T&S can help too, Seeing where the volume is happening, normally watching a chart you see a volume spike, but don't know whether its on the bid or ask or how big the order was, plus charts, although I do keep a few up, I think it hinders me sometimes as I get sucked into the typical "patterns" that are in the TA 101 books, the ones that 90% of traders use and lose with.

I'm not real fussed who agrees or disagrees with me on this, its just something I feel, and something I want to learn, its trading and supply and demand in its purest form, I think its only a matter of time before you start to see things, the games that go on etc. if you keep watching it. If you're watching every single transaction go through, bots or algos or whatever they may be, its still going to be recorded, the speed of the tape, different momentum changes, big lots, lots of fast small lots, you have to start seeing it eventually I believe. It can only help your trading IMO, its certainly not going to hurt your results.

I have read it and watched the video too, and I liked it. He said himself that it took months and months to start seeing things, which, even though I have watched his video and read the book, it will still take months to see anything, but ofcourse its in people to expect instant results and not put any of the hard work in.

[evroom1]

Thanks, What was the name of this book you refered to? I have seen the best traders trade with little or no refering to a chart. I have not found ay real training on the subject as of yet. So any help is much appreciated. I looked at time Time and sales and it is part of this picture but not the only part. A dom that was set up in an entirely different fashion than the ones Iam used too make do the trick. Thankyou again for your post. It was that type of post I was hoping to get. This not meant to be an incidator vs. no incidator thread.
How what is it that you train your eyes to see. What noise do we want to avoid/

[Jumper]

PM me and I can give you some names of some books I know of, although I don't think these will help much, this kind of trading is something that is best learned from experience, hence why not many people can do it properly I believe, as you need to put in the hours before you start to "see" things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an expert on this at all, I just really like it and it interests and appeals to me, and its definitely a lost art.

As far as what you want to train your eyes to see, basically the big orders, big players, need to see what their intentions are and jump on board, also need to watch for acceptance, rejection, speed, absorption of orders, bids and offers being pulled, making one side of the book look weak when their intentions are really the opposite way etc. There are lots of things to watch for, seeing how price reacts to the bigger lots, determining whether its computers or people, watching for bots, fakeouts, icebergs. Million different things, which all take time to see, hence why I am no expert at this and there are no doubt much more experienced traders out there that know more about this, as I said I am very much still learning as you need to put the time in, simply because of the fact that finding anything on this topic is hard to come by!

I think it would be great if we could establish some sort of group, of people that are all interested in this, power of multiple minds would only accelerate the learning.

I agree with the indicator vs indicator, I'm not for, or against the use of indicators, whatever works for you, I don't really care, I'm not saying this is better than anything else out there, I think thats one thing that is clear, is that there are a million different ways to make money in the trading business, I know plenty of guys who use charts, some use P&F, some use EW, some use order flow/tape reading like we're discussing in here. Whatever suits you and makes you feel most at home is what will work for you.

Just my 2c.

[Tiobingo]

Charles Lindsay wrote a very interesting book in the 70's I believe, call The Trident Trade Strategy or something like that, if I remember correctly. He talked about a concept called 'ringing.' He kept a log of the daily OHLC and would put a paranthesis around any price that made a pique or valley. He developed some simple math equations that he would plug those 'ringed' price values into and came up with a very effective trade strategy. To this day, I utilize the concepts of his ideas when I look at my charts. Charts, being the operative word here, lol.. But he showed a way to trade without charts and without tape reading.

[evroom1]

I have only read the cliff notes on this book. It appears I already trade this way. But as with you i also rely on charts to get the job done. The trick is now how to figure out how one can see these lines in one axis.
I thank you for your reponse. The search continues.

[Tiobingo]

evroom1, I'm not perfectly clear on what your trying to achieve. Are you trying to trade without charts or are you trying to make money as a trader? Hopefully you can see that the objective might be different for those two choices. I trade and do quite well. My trade setups are based on price action. I then use my very select (and few) indicators to confirm the price action and to calculate my targets and stops. I incorporate a very simple trade mgt scheme (kiss) and quit most sessions with a positive result, moving my account forward at a steady pace. As my account grows, using very tight and controlled but simple money mgt, I scale up my position size over time, sticking to my very effective and simple to follow rules. That's it. My obejective is to make money trading. It's amazing what one could accomplish with simple, clear and concise objectives. I wonder about the motive of learning how to trade without charts. To make money? Or, something else?

[evroom1]

It always a wonder to me why is hard for some people to stay on track. I am glad you trade well. I am not interested in how you trade with charts and incidators. Not even a little bit for the purposes of this thread. I want to know how to trade without a chart. The subject has nothing to with your objectives. This thread is not about you. Get it?
I have seen these traders at work. Just numbers on a single axis, others from just spread sheets. They were making money but more importantly they had removed the elements of trading that cause most chart traders failure.

[Jumper]

What do you mean "numbers on a single axis"? Not sure I follow, by the looks of things, it seems as though you and me are the only ones who are wanting/do to trade this way, seems like a pretty tight-lipped subject