Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

theman

Institutions Buying Vs Traders

Recommended Posts

Hi there

 

EOTPRO have a new indicator that plots 3 subgraphs (indicator),

 

the 1st one shows you how many novice traders (so to speak) are buying/selling

 

the 2nd shows the how many professional traders are buy/selling

 

the 3rd one shows you how many institutions are buy/selling. The institutions being the big boys in trading.

 

So, if a novice (1st one) are selling, there making the wrong move as the 3rd subgraph i.e. institutions are buying.

 

So youre not supposed to trade like small traders i.e. 1st one, you go with the Institution traders i.e. 3rd one.

 

Dont know if this makes sense?

 

 

 

I hope you can help me?

 

Thanks

Edited by stanlyd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My hunch is that their breaking order sizes into "small", "medium", and "large" (such as 1-10 = small, 10-50 = medium, 50+ large, or whatever), and then doing volume at bid/ask for each.

 

Not too complicated, and the concept has some definite uses. Not sure if you could trade straight off it, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My hunch is that their breaking order sizes into "small", "medium", and "large" (such as 1-10 = small, 10-50 = medium, 50+ large, or whatever), and then doing volume at bid/ask for each.

 

 

Wouldn't the use of iceberg orders really make this an inaccurate view? I dont know, i would be very careful of anyone selling something that looks like it actually can make money. If it could actually make money there's no need to sell it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you can see, the orange one is where you get the novice traders selling (when its below the 0 line i.e. white line), but if you look at the purple line I put, the institutions are buying (when its above the 0 line i.e. white line), and if you look at the chart, thats what happened.

 

How cool!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wouldn't the use of iceberg orders really make this an inaccurate view? I dont know, i would be very careful of anyone selling something that looks like it actually can make money. If it could actually make money there's no need to sell it.

 

Exactly, I think you are right. I also agree with atto in how it is choosing to segment. Iceberging certainly happens quite a lot, and I have tried to measure that by rebuilding 1 seconds worth of ticks. However, I read there are also more involved methods of iceberging then just sending a stream of small orders in close succession. I have explored various types of volume breakdown segmenting in the past. I didn't find any consistent mechanical edge there. Using discretion, there may well be an advantage.

 

A model like this, you also assume that each order is a directional bet and they actually want the price to move the way they are pushing. I used to believe this, but have since revised my beliefs.

 

With kind regards,

MK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

keep in mind that just because it worked today does not mean it will work tomorrow and being consistent is the hard part of the game. So maybe you keep an eye on this indicator daily, log it's gains and losses over 6 months and see what the results are. Then think about how it works or doesn't work in a trading plan. I would be up for hearing the results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
keep in mind that just because it worked today does not mean it will work tomorrow and being consistent is the hard part of the game. So maybe you keep an eye on this indicator daily, log it's gains and losses over 6 months and see what the results are. Then think about how it works or doesn't work in a trading plan. I would be up for hearing the results.

 

Exactly....................... the bloke's only developed this a week ago and it can't be backtested as it only runs on live data.

 

So he's only eyeballing the nice trades, amazing how the human mind can spot these.

 

Cheers

 

Blu-Ray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iceberg orders would be a serious issue as the goal there is to make it look like many smaller orders. Open ECry has a nice Iceberg feature and here is what the user guide says about icebergs:

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=7341&stc=1&d=1216680964

 

Order user guide attached to post for anyone that could use it. Nice info in there, even if not using OEC.

 

===============================

 

As for the indicator, give it a test in real-time and see how it goes. It looks like you got a trial or purchased it, so give it a go and report back what you find. Real-time will be the key obviously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iceburging would be a huge problem, and it's trivial for large size traders to do this. Hiding order size isn't the only reason to break up trades, by the way. Additionally, any arbing or hedging could actually go the other direction, even in huge size. The ES isn't a closed market, people trade it many different ways.

 

I examined a few charts with this indicator on them, and I couldn't find a significant edge (small sample size, but these were cherry picked charts to begin with). In fact, a few times, the small orders led the market much sooner. This whole setup also assumes that bid/ask volume is correct, and truely represents buying/selling exactly (it doesn't). Also, I noticed an undo emphasis was placed on the zero line, but in reality, that shouldn't have that much more significance than any other line.. a "slightly below the zero line, so they're net sellers, so it's ok to short" is not very different than a "slightly above..." in terms of actual orders. Finally, this assumes that everyone is trading on the same timeframe. A 60 minute chart trader enters in a zone he defines as "buy" or "sell", regardless of the micro movements below him, and regardless of his size.

 

The concept seems interesting, and may be a good tool, but it isn't as simple as he leads you to believe, in my opinion. If he finds this thread, I welcome him to respond to these issues.. I'd love to be wrong about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I to ran across this new indicator on Richard's site and it seems like a good idea. I follow his posts every now and then and he's really geeked about his new baby: the "Volume Splatter" indicator. Yes, it may now work well because it is so new and thus does not have a lot of back testing behind it. Yet, I'm interested in how he does it.

 

Two basic things are going on here:

 

1) Richard is splitting the different traders into three camps (small traders, medium traders and big traders). Each camp has it's own indicator window. It appears Richard is, for example, defining "big" traders as those who initiate a position with 51 or more contracts. Does anyone have an idea how this information is obtained in TradeStation with EasyLanguage? How does he split the “big” traders from the “small” or “medium” sized traders?

 

2) It then appears he takes the amount of volume to build the size of the dot or "splatter" mark for each of the appropriate camps. Once we have the different traders split apart what would be a good way to compute the size of the dot?

 

I think it’s an interesting concept but I’m not clear on how this can be done with EL. Hopefully someone with more experience in EL can help me get this started. Any ideas?

 

Thanks,

Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tresor
If there is a trial, get it and try it out for yourself. Report back on what you see.

 

Unfortunately, this indicator will be part of Elite Series (non-standard package) and cannot be trialed.

 

:doh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Iceberg allows big traders to hide the actual order size. But from my observation... even Iceberg orders can not conceal supply/demand entirely.

 

At key turning points, the DOM leaves a clue. Lets say the bid/ask is around 300 lot each on the ES coming down to support. The bid remains at 300... the tape shows contracts being hit at the bid. The bid falls to 80 contracts, however no matter how many sellers hit the bid the level doesnt drop. In other words, though the bid looks thin enough to get taken out it is holding. The bid is refreshing everytime to lets say around 80 lot. This is showing accumulation at that level. The true order size is hidden at the bid... but the tape is showing buying. Its probably alot better showing this visually... but hope this makes sense.

 

Also, I dont think all exchanges support Iceberg orders?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post soultrader. It is true that not all exchanges support iceberg, however it doesn't need to be natively supported to be widely utilized. Brokers and various order entry frontends do simulate it.

 

Your example described above is what I term as passive buying. This is indeed how a lot of the turns occur. Recognizing it in a timely fashion I have found difficult. Its always something I notice in hindsight. I'd like to automate this somehow, but so far I haven't been able to describe it in code properly. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always thought it would be interesting to write an indicator to look at the order book and tape compare orders filled with orders pulled ... add in ease of price movement too maybe. I have always had a hunch that seeing a level refreshed (or orders pulled) would be a good indicator of short term intent.

 

If the splatter plot simply divides by block size and then plots a suitable sized dot it should be pretty trivial to code btw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Tresor

Maybe someone could give a try and code this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately, this indicator will be part of Elite Series (non-standard package) and cannot be trialed.

 

:doh:

 

Buyer beware if there is no trial offered.

 

If this was as good as advertised, why not let someone give it a go for a week or two? If it is that good, most would surely purchase it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest forsearch

Moreover, a competent software vendor would have the ability to encrypt their source code and time-out the trial to lockout folks who didn't subscribe afterward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How is live testing going on this ? by the way nobody posted a link to the actual product .. I just saw the attached pictures, sorry for the dumb question...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How is live testing going on this ? by the way nobody posted a link to the actual product .. I just saw the attached pictures, sorry for the dumb question...

 

Read first post, use google to find product. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Date: 18th April 2024. Market News – Stock markets benefit from Dollar correction. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Technical buying, bargain hunting, and risk aversion helped Treasuries rally and unwind recent losses. Yields dropped from the recent 2024 highs. Asian stock markets strengthened, as the US Dollar corrected in the wake of comments from Japan’s currency chief Masato Kanda, who said G7 countries continue to stress that excessive swings and disorderly moves in the foreign exchange market were harmful for economies. US Stockpiles expanded to 10-month high. The data overshadowed the impact of geopolitical tensions in the Middle East as traders await Israel’s response to Iran’s unprecedented recent attack. President Joe Biden called for higher tariffs on imports of Chinese steel and aluminum.   Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex stumbled, falling to 105.66 at the end of the day from the intraday high of 106.48. It lost ground against most of its G10 peers. There wasn’t much on the calendar to provide new direction. USDJPY lows retesting the 154 bottom! NOT an intervention yet. BoJ/MoF USDJPY intervention happens when there is more than 100+ pip move in seconds, not 50 pips. USOIL slumped by 3% near $82, as US crude inventories rose by 2.7 million barrels last week, hitting the highest level since last June, while gauges of fuel demand declined. Gold strengthened as the dollar weakened and bullion is trading at $2378.44 per ounce. Market Trends:   Wall Street closed in the red after opening with small corrective gains. The NASDAQ underperformed, slumping -1.15%, with the S&P500 -0.58% lower, while the Dow lost -0.12. The Nikkei closed 0.2% higher, the Hang Seng gained more than 1. European and US futures are finding buyers. A gauge of global chip stocks and AI bellwether Nvidia Corp. have both fallen into a technical correction. The TMSC reported its first profit rise in a year, after strong AI demand revived growth at the world’s biggest contract chipmaker. The main chipmaker to Apple Inc. and Nvidia Corp. recorded a 9% rise in net income, beating estimates. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 17th April 2024. Market News – Appetite for risk-taking remains weak. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks, Treasury yields and US Dollar stay firmed. Fed Chair Powell added to the recent sell off. His slightly more hawkish tone further priced out chances for any imminent action and the timing of a cut was pushed out further. He suggested if higher inflation does persist, the Fed will hold rates steady “for as long as needed.” Implied Fed Fund: There remains no real chance for a move on May 1 and at their intraday highs the June implied funds rate future showed only 5 bps, while July reflected only 10 bps. And a full 25 bps was not priced in until November, with 38 bps in cuts seen for 2024. US & EU Economies Diverging: Lagarde says ECB is moving toward rate cuts – if there are no major shocks. UK March CPI inflation falls less than expected. Output price inflation has started to nudge higher, despite another decline in input prices. Together with yesterday’s higher than expected wage numbers, the data will add to the arguments of the hawks at the BoE, which remain very reluctant to contemplate rate cuts. Canada CPI rose 0.6% in March, double the 0.3% February increase BUT core eased. The doors are still open for a possible cut at the next BoC meeting on June 5. IMF revised up its global growth forecast for 2024 with inflation easing, in its new World Economic Outlook. This is consistent with a global soft landing, according to the report. Financial Markets Performance:   USDJPY also inched up to 154.67 on expectations the BoJ will remain accommodative and as the market challenges a perceived 155 red line for MoF intervention. USOIL prices slipped -0.15% to $84.20 per barrel. Gold rose 0.24% to $2389.11 per ounce, a new record closing high as geopolitical risks overshadowed the impacts of rising rates and the stronger dollar. Market Trends:   Wall Street waffled either side of unchanged on the day amid dimming rate cut potential, rising yields, and earnings. The major indexes closed mixed with the Dow up 0.17%, while the S&P500 and NASDAQ lost -0.21% and -0.12%, respectively. Asian stock markets mostly corrected again, with Japanese bourses underperforming and the Nikkei down -1.3%. Mainland China bourses were a notable exception and the CSI 300 rallied 1.4%, but the MSCI Asia Pacific index came close to erasing the gains for this year. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.vvvvvvv
    • Date: 16th April 2024. Market News – Stocks and currencies sell off; USD up. Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Stocks and currencies sell off, while the US Dollar picks up haven flows. Treasuries yields spiked again to fresh 2024 peaks before paring losses into the close, post, the stronger than expected retail sales eliciting a broad sell off in the markets. Rates surged as the data pushed rate cut bets further into the future with July now less than a 50-50 chance. Wall Street finished with steep declines led by tech. Stocks opened in the green on a relief trade after Israel repulsed the well advertised attack from Iran on Sunday. But equities turned sharply lower and extended last week’s declines amid the rise in yields. Investor concerns were intensified as Israel threatened retaliation. There’s growing anxiety over earnings even after a big beat from Goldman Sachs. UK labor market data was mixed, as the ILO unemployment rate unexpectedly lifted, while wage growth came in higher than anticipated – The data suggests that the labor market is catching up with the recession. Mixed messages then for the BoE. China grew by 5.3% in Q1 however the numbers are causing a lot of doubts over sustainability of this growth. The bounce came in the first 2 months of the year. In March, growth in retail sales slumped and industrial output decelerated below forecasts, suggesting challenges on the horizon. Today: Germany ZEW, US housing starts & industrial production, Fed Vice Chair Philip Jefferson speech, BOE Bailey speech & IMF outlook. Earnings releases: Morgan Stanley and Bank of America. Financial Markets Performance:   The US Dollar rallied to 106.19 after testing 106.25, gaining against JPY and rising to 154.23, despite intervention risk. Yen traders started to see the 160 mark as the next Resistance level. Gold surged 1.76% to $2386 per ounce amid geopolitical risks and Chinese buying, even as the USD firmed and yields climbed. USOIL is flat at $85 per barrel. Market Trends:   Breaks of key technical levels exacerbated the sell off. Tech was the big loser with the NASDAQ plunging -1.79% to 15,885 while the S&P500 dropped -1.20% to 5061, with the Dow sliding -0.65% to 37,735. The S&P had the biggest 2-day sell off since March 2023. Nikkei and ASX lost -1.9% and -1.8% respectively, and the Hang Seng is down -2.1%. European bourses are down more than -1% and US futures are also in the red. CTA selling tsunami: “Just a few points lower CTAs will for the first time this year start selling in size, to add insult to injury, we are breaking major trend-lines in equities and the gamma stabilizer is totally gone.” Short term CTA threshold levels are kicking in big time according to GS. Medium term is 4873 (most important) while the long term level is at 4605. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • Date: 15th April 2024. Market News – Negative Reversion; Safe Havens Rally. Trading Leveraged Products is risky Economic Indicators & Central Banks:   Markets weigh risk of retaliation cycle in Middle East. Initially the retaliatory strike from Iran on Israel fostered a haven bid, into bonds, gold and other haven assets, as it threatens a wider regional conflict. However, this morning, Oil and Asian equity markets were muted as traders shrugged off fears of a war escalation in the Middle East. Iran said “the matter can be deemed concluded”, and President Joe Biden has called on Israel to exercise restraint following Iran’s drone and missile strike, as part of Washington’s efforts to ease tensions in the Middle East and minimize the likelihood of a widespread regional conflict. New US and UK sanctions banned deliveries of Russian supplies, i.e. key industrial metals, produced after midnight on Friday. Aluminum jumped 9.4%, nickel rose 8.8%, suggesting brokers are bracing for major supply chain disruption. Financial Markets Performance:   The USDIndex fell back from highs over 106 to currently 105.70. The Yen dip against USD to 153.85. USOIL settled lower at 84.50 per barrel and Gold is trading below session highs at currently $2357.92 per ounce. Copper, more liquid and driven by the global economy over recent weeks, was more subdued this morning. Currently at $4.3180. Market Trends:   Asian stock markets traded mixed, but European and US futures are slightly higher after a tough session on Friday and yields have picked up. Mainland China bourses outperformed overnight, after Beijing offered renewed regulatory support. The PBOC meanwhile left the 1-year MLF rate unchanged, while once again draining funds from the system. Nikkei slipped 1% to 39,114.19. On Friday, NASDAQ slumped -1.62% to 16,175, unwinding most of Thursday’s 1.68% jump to a new all-time high at 16,442. The S&P500 fell -1.46% and the Dow dropped 1.24%. Declines were broadbased with all 11 sectors of the S&P finishing in the red. JPMorgan Chase sank 6.5% despite reporting stronger profit in Q1. The nation’s largest bank gave a forecast for a key source of income this year that fell below Wall Street’s estimate, calling for only modest growth. Apple shipments drop by 10% in Q1. Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business. Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar. Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding on how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE! Click HERE to READ more Market news. Andria Pichidi Market Analyst HFMarkets Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in FX and CFDs products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • The morning of my last post I happened to glance over to the side and saw “...angst over the FOMC’s rate trajectory triggered a flight to safety, hence boosting the haven demand. “   http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/topic/21621-hfmarkets-hfmcom-market-analysis-services/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-228522   I reacted, but didn’t take time to  respond then... will now --- HFBlogNews, I don’t know if you are simply aggregating the chosen narratives for the day or if it’s your own reporting... either way - “flight to safety”????  haven ?????  Re: “safety  - ”Those ‘solid rocks’ are getting so fragile a hit from a dandelion blowball might shatter them... like now nobody wants to buy longer term new issues at these rates...yet the financial media still follows the scripts... The imagery they pound day in and day out makes it look like the Fed knows what they’re doing to help ‘us’... They do know what they’re doing - but it certainly is not to help ‘us’... and it is not to ‘control’ inflation... And at some point in the not too distant future, the interest due will eat a huge portion of the ‘revenue’ Re: “haven” The defaults are coming ...  The US will not be the first to default... but it will certainly not be the very last to default !! ...Enough casual anti-white racism for the day  ... just sayin’
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.