[thalestrader]

Originally Posted by Spydertrader »

Learning to thoroughly and properly 'contain' Price and Volume in order to more easily see these sequences represents the first step toward profitability.

HTH.

- Spydertrader

Hi there,

I have never learned "to thoroughly and properly 'contain' Price and Volume" in the manner you present here.

Also, in the interest of full disclosure: I have learned to become immediately suspicious whenever anyone presents a "method" interpreting any indicator other than price as "the first step to profitability."

I would bet, that in most cases, a reader of this thread, trying to do so as you recommend, would experience not "the first step toward profitability" but merely another step down the road of frustration and failure.

I have attached a copy of yesterday's ES 5 minute chart to illustrate how I view yesterday's price action. Price is its own indicator, and it is in need of no additional, ancillary, and derivitive confirmation. Nothing other than what presents itself on the chartt throughout the day is necessary to trade profitably. Of course, price action is free.

Best Wishes,

Thales

[DbPhoenix]

Originally Posted by thalestrader »

I have attached a copy of yesterday's ES 5 minute chart to illustrate how I view yesterday's price action. Price is its own indicator, and it is in need of no additional, ancillary, and derivitive confirmation. Nothing other than what presents itself on the chartt throughout the day is necessary to trade profitably. Of course, price action is free.

Best Wishes,

Thales

OTOH, volume can be helpful. Matinthehat understands this stuff as well as anybody and better than most. I suggest that those who are interested look up his old posts.

[Spydertrader]

Originally Posted by euclid »

I can't see any relationship between your lines/labels and the height of the volume bars.

"Height of Volume Bars" represents only one possible relationship shown on the chart with Respect to the Volume Bars. By first understanding the fractal nature of the market, and then, applying that understanding onto one's chart, the trader can readily see the same sequences repeat - over and over again.

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader]

Originally Posted by thalestrader »

I have attached a copy of yesterday's ES 5 minute chart to illustrate how I view yesterday's price action. Price is its own indicator, and it is in need of no additional, ancillary, and derivitive confirmation. Nothing other than what presents itself on the chartt throughout the day is necessary to trade profitably. Of course, price action is free.

First off, no need to apply any sort of 'Gap Rule' to the open. Gaps do not exist. Simply 'mentally' slide the market open to the prior day close, and the market sequences continue where they ended.

Second, without Volume, Price does not exist. In other words, unless and until a trade takes place, Price doesn't hit the tape. That trade represents Volume.

In addition, the sequences of Volume must complete before the current trend (measured on whatever fractal one desires) reaches completion.

Hence, Volume leads Price. Always.

- Spydertrader

[Tams]

Originally Posted by Spydertrader »

First off, no need to apply any sort of 'Gap Rule' to the open. Gaps do not exist.
Simply 'mentally' slide the market open to the prior day close, and the market sequences continue where they ended...
- Spydertrader

for the EasyLanguage users, you are in luck...

there is no need to 'mentally' slide the market open to the prior day close...

you can do it with the sHiFt indicator:

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/for...fted-5949.html


31.11

[matinthehat]

In Thales's example i see a weakening down-trend. The first sideways movement (indicated by '1') is either shorts covering and new longs entering (high volume) or a lack of buying and selling interest (low volume). Price then declines out of this first box indicating that there is a lack of support (low volume) or a strong new selling interest (rising volume). Most likely there is a lack of support as more shorts wait to see what will happen before they cover. Also, most likely the downward movement out of the first box was on weak volume as the old shorts would have covered if they saw that there was weak selling interest to the downside, which is most likely what they did as price rose quickly off of those new lows. As price goes into the second sideways movement (indicated by '2') either shorts are covering ((high volume) which is most likely the case as the end of the trading session is nearing + price does not look very promising to the donwside) or there once again is a lack of buying and selling interest ((low volume) which is most unlikely). As price hits the red line we see a decline in price and then another test of this line and a failure to breach. Now this is most likely because of a fight between the short coverings + new bulls and the new shorts (high volume). As the new bulls see how long the bears have been in power and the small amount of time left before the day's close, they would most likely sell out of their positions and allow the bears to take price down as much as they can before they to are forced to cover.

Feel free to add and correct. I do not like to analyse charts in this fashion as i am not a strong communicator.

[matinthehat]

If you do not understand your chart, then do not do anything based on it. Noone can understand every single little movement in the markets, so there is no point in trying to. When you find something that truly makes sense to you, then you should have the confidence to act on it. If you lack this confidence then you should not trade until you have it. This might be a little off-track, but i believe Brownsfan's meaning of this thread was to spark an insightful discussion, and no intelligence is being gained by everyone stating the same thing over and over again (not to step on any toes).

[thalestrader]

Originally Posted by Spydertrader »

First off, no need to apply any sort of 'Gap Rule' to the open. Gaps do not exist. Simply 'mentally' slide the market open to the prior day close, and the market sequences continue where they ended.

Gaps are very real, and are themselves a form of impulse that represents at least a tempoary imbalence between buyers and sellers. You can "mentally slide the market" all you want, but doing so chooses to erase an important piece of information that may be used to make trading decisions.

Originally Posted by Spydertrader »

Second, without Volume, Price does not exist. In other words, unless and until a trade takes place, Price doesn't hit the tape. That trade represents Volume.

Without people agreeing to an exchange of something of value for something else of value, there is no price, because there is no exchange. Volume measures units of goods, not people, i.e. not participants. Volume and price are two measures that come out of the observable data of a transaction. Without price having been agreed to, there would be no transaction, hence no volume to measure.

In other words, the transaction is primary to both price and volume, and price is primary to volume.

You are playing the sophist.

Originally Posted by Spydertrader »

In addition, the sequences of Volume must complete before the current trend (measured on whatever fractal one desires) reaches completion.

Hence, Volume leads Price. Always.

- Spydertrader

And again, this last statement has the character of an assertion, not a proof. If you can prove it (without resorting to tautology) please do so.

Best Wishes,

Thales