[DbPhoenix]

Originally Posted by metalhead »

Seems like this thread was made a day after I made this thread over at ET:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showth...0&pagenumber=1

You may want to check that thread out, too. I'm trying to learn PA and have removed all indicators. So far I'm doing horribly :p

That thread is much longer, but is also full of a lot of guru fortune cookie BS which you have to wade through.

Glad to see there are some PA thread over here on TL.

An interesting thread, but a bad beginning. If you believe that discretionary trading is all guesswork and hate guessing and if you think that volume is useless and if you believe that useful trendlines can't be drawn in real time (and, it follows, are therefore useless), then you are virtually guaranteeing your own failure, or, if you prefer, the failure of anyone else to "prove" the value of trading price (i.e., that which is created by the "market" and not by the trader, such as MAs, trendlines, pivot points, Fib, and the vast array of other indicators).

In short, if you're genuinely interested in learning how to trade price, you can't expect to do so if you approach the subject with the attitude that it's all a crock. On the other hand, there's no particular reason why you or anyone else ought to feel as though they are morally obligated in some way to learn how to trade with price alone. Trading by price has no absolutely higher or lower value than trading with indicators. If you believe in your heart of hearts that indicators are the way to go, then stick with them and work it through. Only when you are prepared to address trading by price alone with an open mind will you be prepared to learn how to do it.

[sep34]

Originally Posted by VolumeJedi »

VolumeJedi
They are seeing in price what indicators attempt to see in price.

Either I did a poor job of explaining what I meant in writting or you really didnt read the entire post clearly.. regardless.

By the way pure price action traders dont need to use volume, they can see it in the price action it self.... its called volatility.

If I could edit my post I would add this line that your wrote (They are seeing in price what indicators attempt to see in price. ) instead of this linewhich i mentioned in my original post-->" they have learned to see the indicators in the price action "....

because it say sexactly what I meant to say at the top of my post.
Thanks for the line I will borrow it.


Regards..

[metalhead]

Originally Posted by DbPhoenix »

An interesting thread, but a bad beginning. If you believe that discretionary trading is all guesswork and hate guessing and if you think that volume is useless and if you believe that useful trendlines can't be drawn in real time (and, it follows, are therefore useless), then you are virtually guaranteeing your own failure, or, if you prefer, the failure of anyone else to "prove" the value of trading price (i.e., that which is created by the "market" and not by the trader, such as MAs, trendlines, pivot points, Fib, and the vast array of other indicators).

In short, if you're genuinely interested in learning how to trade price, you can't expect to do so if you approach the subject with the attitude that it's all a crock. On the other hand, there's no particular reason why you or anyone else ought to feel as though they are morally obligated in some way to learn how to trade with price alone. Trading by price has no absolutely higher or lower value than trading with indicators. If you believe in your heart of hearts that indicators are the way to go, then stick with them and work it through. Only when you are prepared to address trading by price alone with an open mind will you be prepared to learn how to do it.

Corrections:

I've never found volume to be useful, and the successful traders I've spoken with say they don't use it, either. I also say I am leaving it up on my charts just in case I am able to finally get something from it.

Re: trendlines. 99% of the posts on ET by "gurus" show beautiful trendlines drawn after the fact, and trades made based on trendlines that could not possibly have been drawn at the time. I'm not saying it's impossible to draw trendlines in real time, just that many, many people draw them after the fact and act like they were there all along.

If I sound cynical in that thread, it's because there is so much BS on ET. Fake gurus like to lead newbies astray and try to get them to pay for their courses that don't even backtest profitably (i can name 5 ET'ers off the top of my head who are known for this... and I have them all on my ignore list). I'm putting in a lot of work, I just have my BS detector on from the beginning.

[DbPhoenix]

Originally Posted by metalhead »

Corrections:

I've never found volume to be useful, and the successful traders I've spoken with say they don't use it, either. I also say I am leaving it up on my charts just in case I am able to finally get something from it.

Re: trendlines. 99% of the posts on ET by "gurus" show beautiful trendlines drawn after the fact, and trades made based on trendlines that could not possibly have been drawn at the time. I'm not saying it's impossible to draw trendlines in real time, just that many, many people draw them after the fact and act like they were there all along.

If I sound cynical in that thread, it's because there is so much BS on ET. Fake gurus like to lead newbies astray and try to get them to pay for their courses that don't even backtest profitably (i can name 5 ET'ers off the top of my head who are known for this... and I have them all on my ignore list). I'm putting in a lot of work, I just have my BS detector on from the beginning.

There may be a fine distinction between not finding volume useful and finding it useless, but it may not be worth pursuing. What may be more pertinent is your concern with what the "successful traders" you've spoken with say. I've spoken with successful traders who can't live without it. But none of that is particularly relevant to your situation. If you don't find volume to be useful, then don't use it. But dismissing it without understanding what it is and what it can do for you, much less because of what other traders who very likely will not share your goals, risk tolerance, etc. are doing or not doing, may be short-sighted.

As for gurus and ET and so forth, your thread there is over 500 posts long, so there must be something in it that encourages you to continue. What have you learned so far about trading price action?

[za_xc03]

Hi db I beginners in this trading, I very keen to use volume in my trading.But I not know what book should I read to understand use volume in my trading. Can you tell me what book superlative as reference for those beginners. Tks

[DbPhoenix]

Originally Posted by za_xc03 »

Hi db I beginners in this trading, I very keen to use volume in my trading.But I not know what book should I read to understand use volume in my trading. Can you tell me what book superlative as reference for those beginners. Tks

Volume is too simple to warrant a book, though a number of people have attempted to make more of it than there is, resulting in books of questionable value.

The shortest distance to your goal may be to begin with the stickies at the Wyckoff Forum. These will enable you to put what you learn about volume in a context. If you want to go further, look into the quickie overview of the Forum's content. If you're still hungry, you may find the attached chapter on Volume Studies from Wyckoff's original course helpful, particularly pp. 4-8.

[za_xc03]

Thank you very much Db for the information and i already see your thread at t2w and elitrader.Can I course with you pass email and how many cost necessary for me to pay please email me at za_xc03@yahoo.com

[DbPhoenix]

Originally Posted by za_xc03 »

Thank you very much Db for the information and i already see your thread at t2w and elitrader.Can I course with you pass email and how many cost necessary for me to pay please email me at za_xc03@yahoo.com

No course. Not necessary. There's an enormous amount of information right here, for free, Market Profile in particular. The most important element is practice, and that's entirely up to you.