[Blue]

I've been trading full time for 3 years and I'm still losing money. I'm at the end of my rope! Looking for some help, words of encouragement, or even some harsh words from those who know.

I'm in my late 40's, broker is IB, day-trading NQ.

Three years ago I was laid off and took it as an opportunity to go full time into trading. Had enough money to make a good go of it. Prior to this, I'd read all Larry Williams material, plus all the classics as well as many other books. I traded with a broker for several years. Net result was to lose my $20K trading capital.
When I was laid off, I figured I could spend a few months paper-trading and then go live and start making money. Seemed logical, as everything else I'd done in my life worked that way! Most things I've tried ended successfully.

Not trading.

Began with a mix of live and paper trading. Took me two years to paper trade successfully, all the while losing controlled amounts live At this point I can usually make my target of $100 net profit trading NQ in less than half an hour, on paper. Logically, this should translate into some success trading live, if not the same success.
But no, not at all! I'm still losing my loss limit every day, after three years of this. When I reach my loss limit, and go back to simulated trading, boom, target in 10 minutes, or 15 minutes. Next day, same thing.

When I close on a small loss, it turns around. When I hold the loss waiting for it to turn around, it doesn't, but keeps growing--hold, hold, hold, loss keeps growing--close the trade and boom! it turns around. When I hold waiting for a move, the market inevitably moves against me. When I close after waiting for it to move, it goes in my favor, without me. When I'm profitable with a minuscule couple of ticks, hold, hold, hold waiting for the big move I can see coming, and give up after waiting too long, then Boom! it shoots to the moon, as expected. Again without me.
Net result is my losses grow at an astounding pace, my profits are like try to build a tower by stacking sheets of kleenex.

Is this game rigged? Seems like my broker is trading against me, feeding me whatever market data they need to clean me out. Is this just paranoia, or am I wasting my time and money here?

Is it worth persisting? Can one really be successful trading from home?

[jonbig04]

The answer to your last question is yes.

In my very limited experience price action is all that matters. Focus only on that and get those dreaded lagging indicators off of your screen if you haven't already. Just my advice and its worth the price you paid for it

[james_gsx]

I would have to question whether or not you are trading something that actually works with your personality? Have you thought of trading other markets?

[brownsfan019]

I'll provide my opinions Blue and you can take it for what it's worth...

Originally Posted by Blue »

I've been trading full time for 3 years and I'm still losing money. I'm at the end of my rope! Looking for some help, words of encouragement, or even some harsh words from those who know.

I'm in my late 40's, broker is IB, day-trading NQ.

Three years ago I was laid off and took it as an opportunity to go full time into trading. Had enough money to make a good go of it. Prior to this, I'd read all Larry Williams material, plus all the classics as well as many other books. I traded with a broker for several years. Net result was to lose my $20K trading capital.
When I was laid off, I figured I could spend a few months paper-trading and then go live and start making money. Seemed logical, as everything else I'd done in my life worked that way! Most things I've tried ended successfully.

Not trading.

I can understand that as I am the same way - just about everything I do can be successful if I work hard enough.

Began with a mix of live and paper trading. Took me two years to paper trade successfully, all the while losing controlled amounts live At this point I can usually make my target of $100 net profit trading NQ in less than half an hour, on paper. Logically, this should translate into some success trading live, if not the same success.
But no, not at all! I'm still losing my loss limit every day, after three years of this. When I reach my loss limit, and go back to simulated trading, boom, target in 10 minutes, or 15 minutes. Next day, same thing.

This is why when I hear the - trade on sim and when you can do it there, you can do it live - is incredibly misleading. As the rest of your post demonstrates, there is a high degree of emotion involved when real money is on the line that simply cannot be simulated.

The good news is that your paper trading is making $. The key from there is to work on the emotional part so you can do it live w/ real money.

When I close on a small loss, it turns around. When I hold the loss waiting for it to turn around, it doesn't, but keeps growing--hold, hold, hold, loss keeps growing--close the trade and boom! it turns around. When I hold waiting for a move, the market inevitably moves against me. When I close after waiting for it to move, it goes in my favor, without me. When I'm profitable with a minuscule couple of ticks, hold, hold, hold waiting for the big move I can see coming, and give up after waiting too long, then Boom! it shoots to the moon, as expected. Again without me.
Net result is my losses grow at an astounding pace, my profits are like try to build a tower by stacking sheets of kleenex.

This is the most disturbing part of the post for me. Reason is that you do not have a set of firm rules in place. If you do, they are not being followed (back to that emotional thing).

From the sound of the post, you are basically trading by the seat of your pants even if they are some pretty typed up rules that are laminated by your computer. The rules, if any, are not being followed.

My suggestion Blue is to create a money management plan. You need to come up with a plan that makes sense for you but also puts $ in your pocket.

Is this game rigged? Seems like my broker is trading against me, feeding me whatever market data they need to clean me out. Is this just paranoia, or am I wasting my time and money here?

Is it worth persisting? Can one really be successful trading from home?

I do not believe the game is rigged nor is your broker trading against you since the NQ is traded at a centralized exchange. Your broker makes money on commissions, not on you losing money. They cannot fake quotes or move the market to get your contract(s) out. I've never traded at IB but if they were doing this, we would hear and read about it rather quickly. So yes, that is the paranoia, or better yet, anger/frustration/fear/etc talking in your head.

Can you make $ at this business? You sure can. Is it difficult? Incredibly. And your post illustrates that - you can make money in sim but can't live. In theory, there should be no difference (assuming your fills are accurate); yet we know this to not be true. When your emotions kick in and you trade recklessly, the odds are stacked against you heavily. Winners are tiny and losers a big. We need the opposite to be true.

================

Some other thoughts:

* There are some great threads right here on TL about actual trading. Recently, this thread in the Candlestick Corner, has gotten popular. Take a look. This area that DB runs is also popular.

* Trade entry is only the first part and you've seen this. From there you need to design money management rules that fit your risk tolerance.

* If you want feedback on how you are trading, start a thread and post screenshots. Use SnagIt to annotate them.

* While it can get messy, elitetrader does have some gems floating around there as well. It's time consuming, but you can find some good ones if you look hard enough.

* Get a daily log/blog going. TL has a spot here or head over to a free service like blogger. Don't worry about how many are viewing, just get your daily thoughts on paper.


Good luck in your journey and use the community here as there are some very good members floating around.

[Kiwi]

The game is rigged blue. By you. Because its not like anything you've succeeded at in the past:

- you don't have to work hard to succeed
- working harder doesn't necessarily make it easier
- your emotions and what you do because of them seem to hinder rather than help you

etc etc

We seem to be jumping to solutions too quickly here. I'd suggest we stay in the problem space a bit longer. Why? Because there is a chain of things you need to be doing right to succeed in this hardest easy game in the world and any one can cause failure.

One basic thing you need is a method with positive expectancy after expenses. While one is in the "having trouble" stage that method needs to be something that you can't second guess - what mark douglas calls the mechanical stage.

So, questions:
1. Does your method consistently make money with hindsight (when u review charts). What's the ratio of money won vs lost?
2. Does the method live up to that in paper trading? If not why not?
3. Is the method mechanical (if x happens then y happens I will do z)?

After you answer those questions here then try this. Something you might want to read follows. Read it. And as you do so post your reactions to it and how well and where it fits your experience.

http://www.precisefutures.com/free_doc/doc_1.html

[smwinc]

I would consider taking some time off trading and getting a normal job.

Trading when you are under financial pressure is extremely difficult.

I don't know your circumstances, but I can tell you now, the more you feel like you NEED to make it in trading right now, the less you will.

Making money is a hell of a lot easier when you don't need to be making money.

Making money when you have bills to pay, friends / family that have expectations, is far harder.

I would suggest doing what needs to be done so you have neutral/positive cash flow in your life, and spending all the other spare time on building a viable trading business. Like Kiwi said, there isn't "one quick solution" here.

[brownsfan019]

I don't know that quitting is the answer. We don't know exactly what is behind the troubles here but if it's purely an emotional thing, that can be corrected if worked on intensely. The key is to find the problem - whether a poor system or emotional issues - and see if there's a way to fix that. He says he is making money on sim, so in theory the system can make money. When the real money light is on though, something changes.

[Blue]

You guys are amazing. Thanks for the encouragement and the assurance that the problem is with me, not the game itself.
Right on the money with my problem, I think.
Brownsfan esp. Don't have a mechanical plan, I'm trading mostly by the seat of my pants. And that usually results in an ave. of 40+ trades per day.
My background is in engineering, a world ruled by facts. Since I realized early on that the same kind of consistent, reliable facts don't exist in trading, I've instead concentrated on "tape reading," using TWS Booktrader to acquire a "feel" for the order flow. I can now do this with some competence, but it's highly susceptible to emotion. The "feel" when trading live is not the same as the "feel" when trading sim. The only solution here is to continue with this method until the emotions subside. An uncertain bet at best!
Alternatively, the value of a mechanical method is more apparent to me now with 3 yrs experience than it was in the beginning, ie, probability vs certainty. I guess I'll have to hit the books again and look for a method I can work with. Switching horses this late in the ride is somewhat problematic, however, as my resources are now quite thin.
I'll do the reading as suggested.