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Trading Psychology How do we learn to conquer our fear and greed? Discuss the mental aspects of the game.


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Old 04-02-2008, 04:43 PM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

Just answering the question, zeon. If a trader hasn't defined and tested his setups, he has no idea how many losing trades to expect. So the answer to your original question could just as easily be "both".

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Old 04-02-2008, 11:22 PM
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Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

Santa got me this book based on your reco, it's simple, concise, and logical. Three things I like, and useful, 4.

It reminds me of the way you suggest trading do nothing until there is something to do. Its more relaxed for sure. Thanks.

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Old 04-03-2008, 07:36 AM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE#7: Regard patience as a central pillar of your game and strategy... Don't assign it a secondary or lesser role.

Although the cheetah is the fastest animal in the world and can catch any animal on the plains, it will wait until it is absolutely sure it can catch its prey. It may hide in the bush for a week waiting for just the right moment. It will wait for a baby antelope, and not just any baby antelope, but preferably one that is also sick or lame. Only then, when there is no chance it can lose its prey, does it attack. That, to me, is the epitome of professional trading. (Mark Weinstein)

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Old 04-04-2008, 10:42 AM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE#8: You cannot apply the principles of Zen until you know the game perfectly -- inside and out.

Having the proper attitude of Zen calm and confidence does no good if you do not know the game. Zen will not make up for, or offset, incorrect . . . play. As a result, there is a certain amount of ordinary, old-fashioned work involved in mastering the game -- a certain amount of sweating the white beads before the days of tranquility come along.

The most important thing to know, above all things, is exactly how to play the game. No outlook, attitude, or philosophy is as important as this.

Good [trading] is not a "mood", it is a series of individual decisions. It does not occur by "Buddhistically" meditating ourselves into some dreamlike mental state, but rather by knowing the game well and being in synch with it -- by inserting ourselves correctly into the flow of what is going on in front of us.

No Zen attitude will make up for this lack. You may be quite Zen-like and have all the attributes of Zen calm, but if you play incorrectly, the result is that you will get destroyed. Practice, and long hours at the table, are indispensable.


When I first began to cut up bullocks, I saw before me whole bullocks. After three years' practice, I saw no more whole animals. And now I work with my mind and not with my eye. My mind works along without the control of the senses. Falling back upon eternal principles, I glide through such great joints or cavities as there may be, according to the natural constitution of the animal. I do not even touch the convolutions of muscle and tendon, still less attempt to cut through large bones.

A good cook changes his chopper once a year, -- because he cuts. An ordinary cook, one a month, -- because he hacks. But I have had this chopper nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the whetstone. For at the joints there are always interstices, and the edge of a chopper being without thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without thickness into such an interstice. Indeed there is plenty of room for the blade to move about. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for nineteen years as though fresh from the whetstone.

Nevertheless, when I come upon a knotty part which is difficult to tackle, I am all caution. Fixing my eye on it, I stay my hand, and gently apply my blade, until with a hwah the part yields like earth crumbling to the ground. Then I take out my chopper and stand up, and look around, and pause with an air of triumph. Then wiping my chopper, I put it carefully away. (Chuang Tzu)

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Old 04-05-2008, 04:39 PM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE#9: Arrive with a system... It is not enough to rely on luck or hope to carry us past the weak parts of our game. These parts must be attended to. The system must be whole and complete... The weak parts must be corrected, or disaster will appear.

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Old 04-07-2008, 05:59 PM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE#10: Begin by playing tight, but don't forget to stay tight... The important thing is not who possesses the control and discipline at the start of the game, but who possesses it at the middle, the end, and all points throughout.

It is easy to have faith in yourself and have discipline when you're a winner, when you're number one. What you've got to have is faith and discipline when you're not yet a winner. (Vincent Lombardi)

Stick to a plan despite what happened before and what will happen after. It is less about fighting and more about surrendering. (William)

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Old 04-08-2008, 03:16 PM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE #11: Don't fall into the "Now Trap."... Players want to win now, today. Results must happen now, in this hand, the one right in front of us... We assign a little more importance to where we are. We make it bigger, more important... But we do this timewise , too - we assign things more importance because they are happening in the present moment... Yet giving greater importance to the present in the game of poker allows us to imagine marginal hands into good hands and good hands into great hands.

The market doesn't know you and couldn't care less. Couldn't care less about your entry price, either. Nor about your agenda. It's gonna do what it's gonna do, and that most likely will not include plunging as soon as you've entered your short, or rocketing the moment you've gone long. If whatever the market is doing is inconsistent with your agenda, then get out. But don't expect anything magical simply because you've pressed a key. (Db)

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Old 04-09-2008, 12:30 PM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE#12: Detach yourself emotionally from the game.

Please don't think... that I am showing off when I say that I know the secret of how not to lose but win. I really do know the secret; it is terribly silly and simple and consists of keeping one's head the whole time, whatever the state of the game, and not getting excited. That is all, and it makes losing simply impossible... But that is not the point: the point is whether, having grasped the secret, a man knows how to make use of it and is fit to do so. A man can be as wise as Solomon and have an iron character and still be carried away. (Fyodor Dostoyevsky)


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Old 04-10-2008, 12:11 PM
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This member is the original thread starter. Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

RULE#13: Don't be impatient about patience... Your brain is telling you to play patiently while your emotions are saying, "What's taking so long?" These two must be in alignment.

The gatekeeper of our subconscious keeps us from constant behavioral modifications, which means that if you are not a patient type, there is probably more work than just telling yourself to be patient. I think one might have a chance in two ways:

1) If you are an enlightened kind of guy, you can tap into your own innate essence for power. The power comes from your strong awareness. All your subtle self-talk and make-believes and all the games your ego plays will evaporate in the expanse of your wisdom. Just like an old man watching children play.

2) Change your internal self-talk. Bypass the gatekeeper and do some behavioral modification. There are two ways to bypass the gatekeeper: (1) use sheer will and persistence and (2) keep changing your self-talk on the conscious level. Eventually you will have nagged your gatekeeper to death. (William)

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Old 04-10-2008, 12:51 PM
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Re: Zen and the Art of Poker

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RULE#13: Don't be impatient about patience... Your brain is telling you to play patiently while your emotions are saying, "What's taking so long?" These two must be in alignment.
So true on so many levels in poker and trading. Excellent rule!

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