Altruistic traders - why?

[TinGull]

I didn't mean for it to sound as an attack against you. I just used the word "you" where I should have used the word "someone". If someone doesn't feel that helping is a good thing, then I wouldn't want to converse with them as thats not the kind of person I like to be around.

Sorry if it came across that way...

[thetradingdoctor]

You have to do what works for you. If you think it is not helping to help other traders take money from other traders, then don't do it. If you think it is helping, then do it. No two people have the same ethics, values or morals. No two people think alike, especially in the area of trading. It is important to remember that trading is a game with very high stakes. This is why emotions run so high. There are those who believe that they should not help anyone else, that they are an island unto themselves and that all they need to do is to take other peoples money before those people take their money. There are those who will tell you that this is "wrong" and that it is our responsibility to "give back" and share knowledge with others so that we can help them learn and trade. There is no right answer and no wrong answer to this issue. It is highly personal. Each of us must find our own way in the markets, just as in life.

Thanks!
Janice

[GCB]

The desire to help and especially to feel we have something to offer others is part of human nature. This is why the veteran quarterback will mentor the rookie, not just because the coach tells him to, but because he wants to, even though he knows he might be helping the rookie take his job.

There is also a need in most of us for camraderie and feeling we are part of a team. When you work with other traders that need is somewhat met. It makes us feel good.

The idea that by helping others you are potentially hurting yourself is sort of like worrying you are going to kill your lawn by pulling up a few weeds. In other words, it's very unlikely. Oh, if you have some super-innovative trading scheme you might want to keep it to yourself. But which of us really has such a thing? Most of us are using things everyone has known about for years.

Let's suppose you write a book about trading and from that book 1000 people become a better traders than you. Is that measly 1000 people going to effect the market to the detriment of your trading. Not in the least. Plus, for that 1000, 100,000 will try trading and fail.

If someone has the gift for trading and is meant to trade I'd rather be the one who helped them along on their path. Their success can't hurt me.

[notouch]

I think you hit the nail on the head GCB. We do it just because it makes us feel good. People tend to contribute to "feel good" charities with a human face more than they contribute to charities like medical research that do more long term good to those who need it. Likewise it makes a trader feel good to see that he has helped out someone he can relate to (a fellow trader).

Imagine being a large trader who runs stops and generally makes money from 'cheating' other traders. That's all part of the game but I wonder if it makes them feel good.

[thetradingdoctor]

There are millions of people trading the markets. We trade the markets to make money. In order to make money, you take it from someone else who is less experienced or less lucky than you are. This is something which people do not often think about, since they are so focused on the making of money. Where does the money you make come from? Where does the money you lose go to? Whom does it come from and whom does it go it?

You will read of many traders who actually do think about where it comes from and have periods of remorse or discontent about it. I think that they have to find a way to overcome those feelings as they are likely to cause some inhibition or hesitation in their trading. When you think about it, it is a sad and vicious game. Yet, it is the way of the natural world, where the strong survive and the weak perish. This is rather heavy food for thought and a poignant and powerful topic. Thank you for starting this topic and for giving everyone something to think about.

Janice

[torero]

I agree. Lots of people seem to be skeptical with the "gee, why is he helping me? what's in it for him?" As long as there is no money or favors involved, then the help is genuine. I think there is always an ulterior motive, but the one I can think of is in the end, teaching others your method or belief reinforces them into yourself, making them stronger, in the end, help you become a better trader of your own method. Not sure if anyone understands that, but it does for me. I complete agree with what Walterw says above because I perceive the same way when helping others.

[cooter]

Greed is good. And if everyone succeeds, that's better in the long run.

But Janice is correct. It is a zero-sum game at the end of the day.

Someone, somewhere has to be on the losing end of your winning trade.

I don't mind helping; but I do hate spoon-feeding folks.

If people can't bother at least doing their own legwork or homework to help themselves, why in the heck should I help them?

[thetradingdoctor]

Helping people makes us feel good. At some level, we are all hardwired to help. In life and trading, it is important to take personal responsibility for what you say, do and think. If you are thinking about helping another trader, you may be well served by first examining and your motives. Be honest with yourself and speak the truth to yourself. Once you do that, you can speak the truth to others. Integrity and being authenticity begin from within and spread outward.

Thanks!

Janice

[GCB]

Probably another reason traders like to help other traders is to counter the ruthless feeling that the so-called "zero-sum-game" principle (which I think is a fallacy and a canard) brings in. If we help others we perhaps are attempting to assuage the feeling that we are taking advantage of others.

But the feeling we are taking advantage of others is unjustified. When you get right down to it, trading is not much different that any other market. We sold our house in California and a year later it was valued at $100,000 more than we sold it for. Did the person that bought it "take" that money from us? Not in the least. If the market had crashed would we have been taking money from him? No. That's just the market. Nobody really knows what's going to happen. Which is why no one is taking anything from anyone.

You might say that a house's value couldn't go to zero. Ask the couple in Dallas whose house had to be leveled because of incompetent exterminators. Or ask people whose houses were in the path of Katrina. Futures contracts rarely go to zero anyway, and I'm sure they do less often than houses do.

The fact is the world needs trading. Traders narrow spreads and keeps prices honest. Futures markets need speculators to take the other side of trades from hedgers. Speculators serve the purpose of assuming risk, which adds to financial stability. Thus they need to be rewarded handsomely when they do it well, or no one would do it at all and financial markets would suffer greatly.

Trading is even mentioned positively in the Bible by Jesus himself*.

* “For [the kingdom of heaven] is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. To one he gave five talents [a unit of money], to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. ... Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave!' Matthew 25:14-16, 19-21

[rolange]

[quote=GCB;12317] Futures markets need speculators to take the other side of trades from hedgers. Speculators serve the purpose of assuming risk, which adds to financial stability. /QUOTE]

This is a fundamental truth that a suprisingly large number of traders are unaware of.

Once this is understood then the 50% retrace suddenly has a whole new meaning.

As for Jesus trading I'm not so sure. Reckon he had better things to do