New Trader: Should I Call It Quits?

[chaostrader]

	Quote:	luke24.5
	Amen. Amen. Amen. Would Boeing tell new pilots to read a book on flying a 747 and then stick them in cockpits? Would you read a book on Judo and tell someone, "alright now, come at me with that knife."? Would you read a book on how to play guitar and expect to cut a record when finished? You can learn from books, tapes and seminars but nothing replaces practice. If you can't afford a real-time datafeed and simulator, at least find a free delayed feed and paper trade. Practice, practice before you step in the ring against the world champions of trading.

Nicely said. Practice makes perfect. There is no other teacher in trading other than experience.

[Wallstreet]

Practice is without doubt important but the educational resources should not be taken lightly either. These after all arise out of the experience of the trading knowledge of the author and why not make a good use of a prior experience. Of course, it should not make one adverse to experimenting one's own ideas.

[Agora]

	Quote:	newtrader
	Thank you. I have looked everywhere for some good tape reading educational materials but failed to find any. Can you recommend any books?

Graifer's book is more about chart reading than "tape reading." Although I'm not sure what everyone's definition of "tape reading" is. I've trained myself to read the bid/offers, pace of print, spreads, size of prints on the NYSE issues but they're changing as of this month to a hybrid market so things will change.

Here are several books that have pretty comprehensive explanations of "behind the scenes" strategies of market makers on Nasdaq stocks:

Jae Yu, "Electronic trading" (best one, I think)
Etzkorn, "What works in online trading"

BTW, tape reading is tape reading, is tape reading. Meaning in a broader sense the vehicle doesn't matter. I recently compared notes with an E-mini trader that reads tape and his approach and thoughts were very similar to what I do on the NYSE. Although the finer points, such as execution, actual physical possibilities and differences dictates what is and is not profitable in one environment vs another - I imagine.

One word of advice, tape reading, I think, is better suited for "scalp" type trading, as it gets you too myopic at times. You get so involved in figuring out the subtle nuances of each action that you often lose the bigger picture and end up over trading - unless scalping is your strategy. Although sometimes you can figure out that there is a large buyer/seller behind the scenes and ride his coat tails for several points. But than again, you don't need tape for that, just look at the charts.

As for quitting, that depends on how much you want to do this. There are many that have taken years to become profitable and finding an approach that speaks to them. Meaning, something that they can feel comfotable doing. There are different time frames, different approaches and different vehicles, any one of which maybe suitable or not for an individual. The hardest part is matching your inner personality to something that allows you to feel comfortable doing. It does not take any special talent nor skill or brains, it's whether you can find a niche that you intimately understand.

Good Luck!

[feb2865]

Some advice here from an old dog

Newbies has this tendency to look for this formula (I am not necesarily talking about the holy grail) that will make them comfortable and will give them confidence about what thier doing. That's why the switch from Fibbonaci, to RSI, to Stochs, ect ect etc. At the end they're frustarted because they don't know what they're doing. This is the point where they start to blow off their accounts.

Even losing in paper is frustrating becuase you lose confidence not only in the market but within yourself. The problem is that they rely blindly on that formula, indicator, marker, etc whitout knowing what's really happening on the market.

"When the RSI have a divergence with price, you sell/buy"

or "when the market bounces off 61% fib level you buy/sell"

They take the signal and most often than not, the market turns around against them. Sounds familiar doesn't it??

Don't quit. Just stop trading for a while Please forget about tape reading, market profile, moving average crossovers, I mean...no strategy no technique...nothing

Clear off your charts. You're going to draw two horizontal lines. Up/Down. Up for the uptrend and down for the downmove That's it Use lower time frames. I'll suggest 2 and 5 minutes. After a while put 30 minutes charts to see the trend for the day

You're going to look for how the market accepts or reject certain levels(area) during the day

Check in what area(not price) the market loses steam. Then reverses. Place a line in there. Practice that for a while. check 'n see how many times the market went back to that area. Now the market went to another area (shifted). Then look to where it stopped and lost steam. Also check how fast/slow the market reach to that area. Look for correlation between time frames.

Soon you're going to see that there's a "bracket" in your charts rigth??

well, check if the market breaks this "bracket" and see how it goes


Please don't put a time table over this practice. You have all the time of the world and nobody is pushing you............... Relax

Now seems that you know what's happening rigth?

You're opening the market chest and watching how the heart beats. Before, you had no idea. You know there was a heart pumping. Now you see it

Very soon this practice will start to make sense to you and when that happens, incorporate daily pivot points. Then you take it from there.

Take your time. Like I said before...relax.

Again, don't trade. Don't even paper trade.

Markets are based on laws of supply and demand. That's the real core. You're just watching when these forces shifts.

Stop forcing you to be succesful in the market. I assure you that will cripple the ability to understand what's going on. It's good , well I should say, it's necessary to have a drive in order to be succesful. But here you need a "controlled" drive. You'll get that with experience. Don't worry, you'll make it

Souldtrader has a wonderful site . Stay around. Ther's plenty of wonderful and experienced traders here willing to help.

Don't put a time table in your learning process.

I have the feeling you've just read many books, articles about tthe markets, how to trade, etc.

If it's so, stop reading. You don't need more technique. You need practice and patience. I suggest don't even come close to tape reading. Not yet. Tape reading is diffcult and traders outhere are in conflict on how the tape should be used. You don't need more confusion. You need clarity so you have a free mind and be able to understand what you're doing.

Sorry for the long post

Regards

Raul

[Soultrader]

Wow feb, you just made this thread into a "Great Thread". I agree with your approach in learning the markets. New traders will find it hard to incorporate advanced strategies of pivots or market profile before they actually understand the auction of the markets.

Traders must understand the law of supply vs demand and learn to view the markets from a bigger picture. Many traders get too caught up in the fast action in day trading that they completely miss observing for balance vs imbalance. Once you understand price action, then you can apply advanced strategies into your trading methodology.

Price action is pure. If you learn to trade with price only, you will always stay in this game. Learning to trade with indicators alone is a bad way to start and you will always be clueless on what the markets is telling you.

When I first learned how to trade, I used no indicators, no pivots, or market profile. I simply watched a 5min candlestick chart with price only. I watched for support/resistance to understand price acceptance vs rejection. After months of training I was able to understand price action. The time I dedicated myself to this has paid off for me.

Trading takes determination and passion. New traders often rush from promises of the quick buck. There is no such thing as easy money in trading. Learn, practice, experience. Craft your skill gradually and improve on it day by day. Keep a journal and write a business plan. I remember when times were tough for me.... passion and ambition helped me push through to the next level.

If you want to succeed in this game, you need the mind set to do whatever it takes to succeed. This even means transforming your conflicting beliefs and changing your mental makeup. You need to set yourself apart from the hundreds of thousands of losing traders.

Good luck.

[Reaver]

OUTSTANDING POST FEB!
Wow, like Soultrader said, you definitely stepped the thread up a notch or two.

Excellent advice.

	Quote:	feb2865
	Some advice here from an old dog Newbies has this tendency to look for this formula (I am not necesarily talking about the holy grail) that will make them comfortable and will give them confidence about what thier doing. That's why the switch from Fibbonaci, to RSI, to Stochs, ect ect etc. At the end they're frustarted because they don't know what they're doing. This is the point where they start to blow off their accounts. Even losing in paper is frustrating becuase you lose confidence not only in the market but within yourself. The problem is that they rely blindly on that formula, indicator, marker, etc whitout knowing what's really happening on the market. "When the RSI have a divergence with price, you sell/buy" or "when the market bounces off 61% fib level you buy/sell" They take the signal and most often than not, the market turns around against them. Sounds familiar doesn't it?? Don't quit. Just stop trading for a while Please forget about tape reading, market profile, moving average crossovers, I mean...no strategy no technique...nothing Clear off your charts. You're going to draw two horizontal lines. Up/Down. Up for the uptrend and down for the downmove That's it Use lower time frames. I'll suggest 2 and 5 minutes. After a while put 30 minutes charts to see the trend for the day You're going to look for how the market accepts or reject certain levels(area) during the day Check in what area(not price) the market loses steam. Then reverses. Place a line in there. Practice that for a while. check 'n see how many times the market went back to that area. Now the market went to another area (shifted). Then look to where it stopped and lost steam. Also check how fast/slow the market reach to that area. Look for correlation between time frames. Soon you're going to see that there's a "bracket" in your charts rigth?? well, check if the market breaks this "bracket" and see how it goes Please don't put a time table over this practice. You have all the time of the world and nobody is pushing you............... Relax Now seems that you know what's happening rigth? You're opening the market chest and watching how the heart beats. Before, you had no idea. You know there was a heart pumping. Now you see it Very soon this practice will start to make sense to you and when that happens, incorporate daily pivot points. Then you take it from there. Take your time. Like I said before...relax. Again, don't trade. Don't even paper trade. Markets are based on laws of supply and demand. That's the real core. You're just watching when these forces shifts. Stop forcing you to be succesful in the market. I assure you that will cripple the ability to understand what's going on. It's good , well I should say, it's necessary to have a drive in order to be succesful. But here you need a "controlled" drive. You'll get that with experience. Don't worry, you'll make it Souldtrader has a wonderful site . Stay around. Ther's plenty of wonderful and experienced traders here willing to help. Don't put a time table in your learning process. I have the feeling you've just read many books, articles about tthe markets, how to trade, etc. If it's so, stop reading. You don't need more technique. You need practice and patience. I suggest don't even come close to tape reading. Not yet. Tape reading is diffcult and traders outhere are in conflict on how the tape should be used. You don't need more confusion. You need clarity so you have a free mind and be able to understand what you're doing. Sorry for the long post Regards Raul

[torero]

We sure miss feb! Hope he comes back.

If you really love the market, you're willing to do it for free? I paper traded for a year without thinking if I was going to make money. My only idea was to understand the market and eventually with luck and readiness I can start trading for real. Money should not be part of the equation, it's an afterthought. If you think about it before, during, and after the trade, you're off to a wrong start. Believe it or not, it's not about the money. It's the whole irony that makes most of us lose in the markets. If your surgeon think about how much he's going to make on your operation and not about saving your life, you'd think twice right?

Take some rest and see if this is what you really want to do, write down 2 columns with pros and cons, and see if it's what you really want to do, even if it's for free. If you do decide to go for it, think of it as an internship, no pay, just learn the ropes until you're ready to be hired as a fulltime employee.

The other thing is a couple of months is very little. Took me a few years to break even. Lots to learn, relearn, develop, redevelop, define, refine, repeat, etc. All these takes time.

Good luck.

[redlew]

Newtrader,
Some good advice from the others here. I would add that my trading improved a lot when I came to the realization that I was looking at indicators because I wanted to be told what to do. When this line does this, then I should do that. The problem there is that all those lines are generated from the past price action and really just tell you what you should have done, not what you should do now. A trader is just one auctioneer amongst many other auctioneers, and all are in a two way auction. So your job is to try to find what value is in the market you are trading. In other words does the price want to go up or down? And then try to position yourself accordingly. I got away from all the high powered computing and started to study the people who first figured out what really constitutes a market. Take a look at the old guys. Richard Wyckoff is my favorite.

[torero]

Agreed redlew. Those old guys are the real gurus of the market! Why? Even if they're not around anymore their books are still selling. It only validates their methods, and they are still valid in today's markets and that says alot without marketing machines.

[Soultrader]

I agree. They are the original market thinkers. Every methodology that you learn today is just a altered version of the old timers. Humprehy Neill is one of my favorite teachers... these guys used simple methods and made a killing in the markets. Which is why I like to keep my trading simple as well.

Grab the entire Frasher Publishing collection... its pure classics.