For those that are full time now-how'd you do it?

[MrPaul]

	Quote:	brownsfan019
	...I am saying that a full-time biz requires work before 9am, during RTH, and after 4pm. It means you live and breathe your biz. It means you pay no attention to the naysayers out there. It means you give it your all and don't look back...

	Quote:	Soultrader
	...My all time favorite word is perseverance. I was able to go full-time by failing multiple times. It did take me a little over 2 years and 10 hour days studying charts, reading books, trading, staring at tape, etc... I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets. Usually do my morning research about 90 minutes before the market opens and another 5 hours after the market closes...

Anyone considering the trading business as a career choice should read those two paragraphs slowly and carefully. These are wise words indeed...

[Reaver]

Very wise words. Thank you very much for the insight and advice.

[heretodaygone...]

	Quote:	Soultrader
	Hi Reaver, My all time favorite word is perseverance.... I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets. .. SIMPLY BECAUSE I REFUSED TO QUIT. I was willing to do anything I can to become successful at it. So my advice for you is determination, patience, passion, and the motivation.

awesome words soultrader....never give up on yourself, never give up on your dreams!

[GCB]

	Quote:	Soultrader
	Hi Reaver, I currently spend about 12 hours a day engaged with the markets. Usually do my morning research about 90 minutes before the market opens and another 5 hours after the market closes.

James,

I'm wondering do you feel you need to do this to have specific insights for the next day, or do you do this for general study to see if you can improve in any way possible?

I currently spend a lot of time studying, and I enjoy doing it. It's part of the pursuit. But I don't feel like I need to study charts for 5 hours in order to be specifically prepared for the next trading day. If I was day trading stocks it might be different, which is one reason I don't day trade stocks.

I asked my mentor--a successful, self-sufficient YM trader--how he prepared for the trading day. He asked me, "Do you want to know the truth?" I said yes. He said, "I get up, pet the cat, have a bowl of cereal, check out the news, and turn on my trading platform and that's it."

Now, I know he does evening research because he sends out a newsletter. So his reply might be a little misleading. But the point is with technical trading of futures, if your method is in place, not much review is necessary. For example, Hubert Senters said he did very little preparation for the trading day. "I'm a tape reader," he said. "I do what the tape tells me. Most other information is not useful to me." Or something to that effect.

[OAC]

First, most people have misconception of trading.
How do you earn an advance degree ?
How do you become a professional athlete ?
Becoming a full-time trader is no different:
YOU WORK LONG PERIOD OF TIME WITHOUT PAY

[Reaver]

	Quote:	OAC
	First, most people have misconception of trading. How do you earn an advance degree ? How do you become a professional athlete ? Becoming a full-time trader is no different: YOU WORK LONG PERIOD OF TIME WITHOUT PAY

I like that alot. As much as the concept sucks, it is very true and many don't understand it. They expect to be making big money right out of the gates.

[TinGull]

Nate, people with a very simple approach to the market who have been honing that approach for a long time can afford to not spend time studying their charts and all that. I personally used to spend sometimes 18 hours a day studying the markets. Do I now? No, I don't. I spend from 8am until 3:30ish doing market stuff. Other than that, I don't want to be immersed in it. Life's all about finding a balance and spending too much time on one thing puts it out of balance.

While trading markets that are out of balance is fun to do, living a life that is out of balance is not fun at all.

[Soultrader]

	Quote:	GCB
	James, I'm wondering do you feel you need to do this to have specific insights for the next day, or do you do this for general study to see if you can improve in any way possible? I currently spend a lot of time studying, and I enjoy doing it. It's part of the pursuit. But I don't feel like I need to study charts for 5 hours in order to be specifically prepared for the next trading day. If I was day trading stocks it might be different, which is one reason I don't day trade stocks. I asked my mentor--a successful, self-sufficient YM trader--how he prepared for the trading day. He asked me, "Do you want to know the truth?" I said yes. He said, "I get up, pet the cat, have a bowl of cereal, check out the news, and turn on my trading platform and that's it." Now, I know he does evening research because he sends out a newsletter. So his reply might be a little misleading. But the point is with technical trading of futures, if your method is in place, not much review is necessary. For example, Hubert Senters said he did very little preparation for the trading day. "I'm a tape reader," he said. "I do what the tape tells me. Most other information is not useful to me." Or something to that effect.

The biggest difference between a private and insitutional trader is that you simply can not call it a day after hitting your daily goal. Its serious work and you constantly have to be engaged in the markets regardless of market condition. You could be the worst trader in a choppy market. But in insititutional trading, you are required to stay at your desk and look for opportunities. This has forced me to expand my trading to make it adaptable to any market condition regardless of whether I like it or not. Bottom line is... get the work done every minute the market stays open. The morning 90 minutes I use to go over charts, read the entire newspaper, and watch SGX open up. Lunch session is used to take notes of my trades and write up a report on my own analysis and bias towards the afternoon session. Perhaps even create a strategy that I can use for the afternoon based on morning action. The work after the close is used to reflect back on the day, do my regular TA and MP analysis for tomorrow, see what areas I can further improve, see opportunities I missed and how I can focus on capturing them, reading the afternoon papers, watching Forex, watching post market SGX action, typing up my daily trading insights and journal, etc... Its become a habit so not as intense as it used to be but all the hours put in keeps me sharp and up close and personal with the market. I have need urge to want to be in complete sync with the market. This means understanding what the market is telling me each day, finding clues, etc... Discretionary trading must be supplemented with strategies. Intuition can take you far only if you have distinct strategies for each market conditition. So are you going to approach the markets the same tomorrow as you did today? I personally do not.

I understand Hubert just wakes up and trade. But he is primarily a scalper reading order flow. (which imo is amazing if consistent) I prefer to trade 1-4 times a day and try to capture nice intraday swings. My 2 cents

Note:　Its not 5 hours straight work. Im taking cig breaks in between, watching bloomberg, chatting with other traders, eating, etc....

[BlowFish]

Tin,

That's a good point. Its the education that takes the hours of blood sweat and tears. Once you are there that is no longer mandatory (though some now choose to continue with the same zeal). I know traders that are happy to take a couple of points out of the market 2,3 or 4 times a week. They have there 'levels' drawn after about 10 minutes and there orders placed 5 minutes after that. After that they are done for the day. Their argument is that the reason they chose this career was for the freedom it offered. Can't fault the logic.

Personally I have done the 18 hour a day stints watching two continents markets studying in slack times eating at the computer, taking a trading book to bed. Its easy to burn out emotionally (as well as financially) and I did more than once. Actually I'm still not sure I'm completely in the clear .

With the benefit of hindsight quality of effort/study is oh so important. Quality over quantity everytime, of course starting out it can be hard to tell. I would often do anything (and everything) to avoid tackling the real issues that I needed to address. I am still prone to allow myself to be distracted and justify it by saying I am 'working' because its trading related.

I'd start with a plan that lays out what you are going to do and how you are going to do it milestones etc. Just as if you where going to start any other business and transition from part time to full time. Do it 'for real' ask your self if someone else gave me this plan would I invest in the venture? If I was the bank would I support it? etc. I'm sure there are loads of places you can get info on writing a good business plan. The 'business' part of a trading plan (including the micro and macro parts of money management) are pretty critical. Actually its probably better to have a business plan with a trading part rather than the other way round.

Cheers.

[Nick1984]

The money management question has always puzzled me. Lets say you decide to take the plunge and become a full time trader and you have saved up $20k and decide to place $10k in your trading account and $10k to suppliment your living expenses for a while. So you start trading and lets assume you're successfull consistenty and making 20 YM points per day trading 1-2 contracts. So assume you're making anywhere between $500-1000 per week. Your original $10k wont last too long if your knocking out the rent, going out, etc etc so soon you find yourself having to rely on your trading profits to fund your lifestyle.

Drawing down from your account limits your accounts ability to grow so that you can start trading more contracts to make even more money. This is the biggest conundrum. How do you fund your lifestyle and expect to continue growing your account unless you have some other avenue to have funds coming in to fund day to day living expenses? If you're starting out trading 1 contract at a time you're not going to make a lot of money, and nobody is going to make 20 YM points a day, every day, day in day out. There will be off days where you take a net loss which hinders progress as well.

How have you dealt with this problem?